[Noel Freeman]

I didn't hear anyone sing the praises of 7. One of the best greens on a course full of excellent greens.

Sean: 6 noteworthy green complexes? Sorry, but you're just plain wrong on this one! 

The genius in my opinion of the 7th green is the little hollow left of the green.  When the pin is left, the bunker is in play but if you try to run up your approach this little devious thumbprint shunts off your ball.  Into the northerly, it becomes much more of a factor as you try and cheat the wind and hit it low bringing it into play but even with the wind at your back, it is something I always think of with any front pin placement.

[Mark Chaplin]

Now the green on the 7th has been expanded back right, there is a very small and subtle shelf which has a couple of wonderful pin positions.

The beauty of Deal's greens are the trick slopes and hollows around the green which test any slightly missed shot to the full.

My favourite greens are not 1, 3, 12, 16 and 17 which are glorious but the flatter subtle greens where putts are rarely holed - 4, 6, 11 & 18.

Deal would be rated higher if it was on the mainstream tourist trail, but then we don't have queues of Perry Golf and other coaches in the car park and members, guests and visitors can usually secure a tee time with relative ease. For visitors we even allow weekend golf.

[Michael Whitaker]

For visitors we even allow weekend golf.

Mark,

I am shocked at how the visitor fees have skyrocketed over the past few years. When a joined Deal just a few years ago the visitor fee was £85... now it is £155! I suppose the thinking is we would rather have one guest at £155 than two at £85, but I don't like Deal being a leader in the visitor fee inflation movement. The club is even starting to push the limits on overseas subs. The club doesn't seem to understand we are in a recession... and, it's not over.

Whit

[Eric Strulowitz]

For visitors we even allow weekend golf.

Mark,

I am shocked at how the visitor fees have skyrocketed over the past few years. When a joined Deal just a few years ago the visitor fee was £85... now it is £155! I suppose the thinking is we would rather have one guest at £155 than two at £85, but I don't like Deal being a leader in the visitor fee inflation movement. The club is even starting to push the limits on overseas subs. The club doesn't seem to understand we are in a recession... and, it's not over.

Whit

Seems like many people in this industry don't realize we are still in a recession.  I am of the firm belief that a full daily tee sheet beats the heck out of partial tee sheet.  There is a perception that if you discount, you somehow cheapen or marginalize the facility.  In golf it seems, expensive means good, cheap means bad.  That translates to almost everything, lessons, equipment, and courses.

RCP is a great course, played it twice, will never forget it.  But that price is really pushing it.  I am exploring a 2-3 week UK trip next year, and the focus will be hidden gems and no-name courses.  I have played many hidden gems and no-names, and the experience did not suffer the least for it.

[Michael Whitaker]

For visitors we even allow weekend golf.

Mark,

I am shocked at how the visitor fees have skyrocketed over the past few years. When a joined Deal just a few years ago the visitor fee was £85... now it is £155! I suppose the thinking is we would rather have one guest at £155 than two at £85, but I don't like Deal being a leader in the visitor fee inflation movement. The club is even starting to push the limits on overseas subs. The club doesn't seem to understand we are in a recession... and, it's not over.

Whit

Seems like many people in this industry don't realize we are still in a recession.  I am of the firm belief that a full daily tee sheet beats the heck out of partial tee sheet.  There is a perception that if you discount, you someone cheapen or marginalize the facility.  In golf it seems, expensive means good, cheap means bad.  That translates to almost everything, lessons, equipment, and courses.

RCP is a great course, played it twice, will never forget it.  But that price is really pushing it.  I am exploring a 2-3 week UK trip next year, and the focus will be hidden gems and no-name courses.  I have played many hidden gems and no-names, and the experience did not suffer the least for it.

Eric,

The problem is that the hidden gems and no name courses are following the lead of the destination courses and raising their rates as well. Courses that used to be great bargains at £25-35 are now £50-70... everything has been ratcheted up. The folks in the UK seem to think that Americans, Scandinavians, and Asians will pay anything to visit their courses. At some point the bubble will burst.

Mike

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mike I do hear you and so does Mark, I know he has argued that the costs of just getting to the course is skyrocketing and that the club needs to think long term with its pricing.


Ironically sites such as this and the Top 100 one help create a climate where a lot more golfers are prepared to pay what's asked to play 'famous' courses.  It's anecdotal but I have talked to a few secretaries who say there's a lot more one hit and move on trade than in the past.  Hence clubs are keen to get their name out beyond a local fame.

[Sean_A]

For visitors we even allow weekend golf.

Mark,

I am shocked at how the visitor fees have skyrocketed over the past few years. When a joined Deal just a few years ago the visitor fee was £85... now it is £155! I suppose the thinking is we would rather have one guest at £155 than two at £85, but I don't like Deal being a leader in the visitor fee inflation movement. The club is even starting to push the limits on overseas subs. The club doesn't seem to understand we are in a recession... and, it's not over.

Whit

Whitty

The green fee is easily my biggest beef with Deal.  In short, I won't pay £130 for a game there - its a silly fee.  The course is great, but not so much greater and certainly no more fun than many others at half the price.  I know Chappers has said nobody on GCA pays full whack, but from my perspective its beneficial to just turn up for a game rather than rely on the largesse of members - even if I know a few quite well.  Its sad to think there are many courses in GB&I I won't be playing again, but at least I had a go at most before insanity set in.  

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Reading Tom Doak's posting I got the impression that perhaps he has an issue with the flow. In any event that is my main critique. Here is a passage from my review of Deal:

"Some of the holes are unique and playing them is a game all by itself, whereas a few others are a bit more conventional in comparison. This leads to a somewhat jerky rhythm, the routing doesn't flow effortlessly like at most other world class courses. The many different architects appear to have been pointed at local issues. It seems that in the last 100 years there has been no interest to look at the whole picture, perhaps rightfully so."

It's an issue of personal preference how much weight this issue ultimately carries. I can see Deal dropping out of a Top 100 list because of it, but golfers playing "hole by hole" and not "the course" probably wouldn't mind at all.

What I didn't quite understand was Tom's notion that Deal didn't have enough strengths. There are a number of features that I have never seen on any other course. The fairway bunkering and green of #3 is an example, as is the running approach to #16 or the crumpled fairway of #17. I can see Deal succumbing to a few weaknesses, but it does provide a handful of totally unique situations.

Ulrich (opinion based on 5 rounds)

[Noel Freeman]

Reading Tom Doak's posting I got the impression that perhaps he has an issue with the flow. In any event that is my main critique. Here is a passage from my review of Deal:

"Some of the holes are unique and playing them is a game all by itself, whereas a few others are a bit more conventional in comparison. This leads to a somewhat jerky rhythm, the routing doesn't flow effortlessly like at most other world class courses. The many different architects appear to have been pointed at local issues. It seems that in the last 100 years there has been no interest to look at the whole picture, perhaps rightfully so."

It's an issue of personal preference how much weight this issue ultimately carries. I can see Deal dropping out of a Top 100 list because of it, but golfers playing "hole by hole" and not "the course" probably wouldn't mind at all.


What I didn't quite understand was Tom's notion that Deal didn't have enough strengths. There are a number of features that I have never seen on any other course. The fairway bunkering and green of #3 is an example, as is the running approach to #16 or the crumpled fairway of #17. I can see Deal succumbing to a few weaknesses, but it does provide a handful of totally unique situations.

Ulrich (opinion based on 5 rounds)

Ulrich, I have always respected your opinions and views.  I guess my rebuttal for Deal would start with this:

Flow according to the acclaimed psychologist Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (chick sent me hi phonetically) is the mental state of operation in which a person in an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity.

Now I know your critique was meant to explain the rhythm and feel of the golf course (you feel it gets pedestrian in spots) after leaving you sequestered in some "unique" experiences.  That is why I brought up the psychology of flow because the first time I played Deal I felt what Csikszentmihalyi describes and it had nothing to do with the scorecard.  It is in fact the reason I joined--more on that in a second.

The great writer Steven Pressfield believes every great pitch for a book or a movie can come down to 3 elements.. You can describe it in 3 acts.. For example:


Here’s Moby Dick in three acts:

1. Ahab sets out after the whale.

2. Ahab chases the whale to the ends of the earth.

3. Ahab and the whale duke it out to the death.

Act One is the hook. “A priest, a rabbi and a gerbil walk into a bar … ” The purpose of the first act is to engage the audience. The greatest Act One ever is a roller coaster. Up, up, up and then … over the falls! You’re hooked.

Two other aspects of a great beginning: it must be unique and it must make a promise. A great fishing lure is a shiny, eye-catching object that makes the prey think, “Ah, a delicious meal!”

So let me do this for Deal:

Act 1- Holes 2-10, you play thru the landscape and dunes--akin to playing the orb over nature as the shepards did in the origins of the game back at St. Andrews.  It is this which makes Deal unique and subsequently superior to a course like Birkdale with its huge dunes adjacent to the playing field.  Also this thin ridge peters out, building from the crescendos of the all world 3rd green (and hummocks before), the pulpit green at holes 4 and 6 and the great angles on 10. (THE HOOK)

Act 2- A brief soliloquy at 11.. Some will say this starts at 8, some will say at 9 but as I've said before there are no indifferent shots at Deal followed by another indifferent shot.. We have described the great approach to #7 above, #9 is followed by the the Sir Guy Campbell's depiction of greatness by the "blow of an angel's wing" at #10 and #11 has the Roman Road plus the great approach/green site at #12.  To me the Old Course would suffer your disruption in flow at the 9th and 10th, two holes while drivable I don't find thrilling and gulp a bit pedestrian.

Act 3--The finishing 4 starting at 15-- Back in the dunes with thrilling shot at 15,16,17 and great greens--#15 works away from you and needs a shot that dies at the front ridge, #16 I agree with Peter Allen as the best green in all of links golf, #17 is a wonderful natural punchbowl).  I think the 18th green requires more artistry than people who have only played the course several times know.. You can drive into the ditch and the green is not receptive at time if your do run it up the left side.  The recovery shots on 18 are also quite fun.-- NOEL GOT HOOKED, SOLD ETC

For me Deal flows, it keeps me switched on all the time and I have "condensed flow from the vapor of its nuances" on all shots.  For example 8 is the only shot at the sea, surrounded by bunkers and requiring a hard fade into the southwesterly.  The drives on #9s and #11 get critiqued for being similar but the doglegs are at much different angles (just look at an aerial).  

What inspired me to join Deal and to write about it here a decade ago was that when I finished playing it I found I had played a game of chess with not only a cruel taskmaster (holes 8,12,14,15) but with a girl who is a tawdry affair candidate (holes 3,6,16) and a harlot (holes 1,2,17) and not a plain Jane but holes a links apologist will love (holes 7,9,11).  So I felt flow, I was into every shot and it appealed to my golfing psychology.

I realize many will not experience that and some think Deal isn't "pretty".  But do what Mark Chaplin does sometimes and what I do now.  Walk along the beach and eventual sea wall to the course and then over the landform to the clubhouse.  If that isn't beautiful or inspirational, than I don't know what is.  When you stand in the low points of the dunes on holes like 2,3,15,16 is it not some of the best golfing grounds in the world?  I will submit in my experience one is.  But still this won't get many to admit Deal's beauty so I'll leave it to Darwin who said the larks always sounded louder at Deal cheek by jowl on Pegwell Bay than anywhere else. When the sun comes out and I see the cliffs of Ramsgate and hear the birds sing after a summer equal and look out upon that azure blue water from the 4th tee, I feel like Matthew Arnold did (Dover Beach).  Maybe the larks know something..


Or maybe my brain has had too much Peyote..

Tuco/Noel

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike this isn't a thread about costs but I feel I need to answer.

Firstly I can assure you the club is very aware of the recession, this member is experiencing a 20% reduction in net salary over two years, so is very much feeling the pinch. Deal will always be an indulgence for the non-local member, our biggest pool of members come from the heathland courses where subs are £1200-£2000pa plus the Deal fee for 6-12 games a year.

We could cut some costs quite easily. The bar and catering could open at 11am but members want a G&T or a bacon sandwich or large brandy or full English at 8am so that's what they get. The bar should close at 6pm but some members and visitors like a shower and drink after their second round. The halfway hut should only really be open on competition and busy visitor days but it's open 7 days a week.

We could take the pro shop in house and retire off Andrew, but we won't.

Some costs we just cannot avoid fuel is up 50% in 4 years. Gas, electric and insurances are leaping up far quicker than inflation. We wanted a top secretary and Superintendent, both have pedigree and people with pedigree deserve good compensation. They will also save us money in the medium/long term.

There are no doubt many good courses that have cheaper fees than us and we are very happy with that. Royal Cinque Ports will always strive to offer a special experience and value for money but you will never arrive at 10am find the bar and catering closed, a shop assistant running the golf shop and three coaches in the car park full of visiting players.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

To be fair, green fees is not a Deal issue per se.  Green fees is really a golfer issue.  The choice is there for all to make - either play or don't - and that is fair enough.  Deal happens to run in the high brow crowd and adjusts its green fees accordingly.  I can't really blame a club for wanting less visitors who pay more money.  That said, I think a longer term problem will be return business.  Golfers aren't getting younger and when the current two oldest generations (mine and my father's) are too old swing a stick (God forbid), where are these golfers willing to pay what will presumably be £175 green fees come from?  So far as I can tell, there isn't as strong a base of hard core golfers among the generations younger than us.   

Ciao 

[Sev K-H Keil]

Mike this isn't a thread about costs but I feel I need to answer.

Firstly I can assure you the club is very aware of the recession, this member is experiencing a 20% reduction in net salary over two years, so is very much feeling the pinch. Deal will always be an indulgence for the non-local member, our biggest pool of members come from the heathland courses where subs are £1200-£2000pa plus the Deal fee for 6-12 games a year.

We could cut some costs quite easily. The bar and catering could open at 11am but members want a G&T or a bacon sandwich or large brandy or full English at 8am so that's what they get. The bar should close at 6pm but some members and visitors like a shower and drink after their second round. The halfway hut should only really be open on competition and busy visitor days but it's open 7 days a week.

We could take the pro shop in house and retire off Andrew, but we won't.

Some costs we just cannot avoid fuel is up 50% in 4 years. Gas, electric and insurances are leaping up far quicker than inflation. We wanted a top secretary and Superintendent, both have pedigree and people with pedigree deserve good compensation. They will also save us money in the medium/long term.

There are no doubt many good courses that have cheaper fees than us and we are very happy with that. Royal Cinque Ports will always strive to offer a special experience and value for money but you will never arrive at 10am find the bar and catering closed, a shop assistant running the golf shop and three coaches in the car park full of visiting players.

BRAVO!

[Rich Goodale]

G&Ts at 8AM.  Now I know why so many GCAers have joined Deal.....

[Mark Chaplin]

Hopefully Scott will pass on the story of a game I sort of caused him to get set up with. I think it was a culture shock for the poor Aussie wanting to make a good impression and being in some very bad company!!

Ps I trust you are not supporting my pay cut!!  
 

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark,

I think the club's focus should be doing everything it can to retain current members and attract new ones from all categories... local, country and overseas. To be honest, I'm not worried about whether there is someone on hand to serve me a gin & tonic at 9:00am when I'm in town. I think you have visited too many posh American clubs and become dazzled by the "anything you want, anytime you want it" service scheme.  

RCPGC has made great headway in the last few years, Mark, and you have been a big part of that by recruiting so many new members. I hope they don't dig themselves into another hole by chasing an unreasonable level of service. It was not "service" that attracted me to RCPGC, it was the course and welcoming nature of the members... the Angry Dwarf notwithstanding.  

[Bill_McBride]

Reading Tom Doak's posting I got the impression that perhaps he has an issue with the flow. In any event that is my main critique. Here is a passage from my review of Deal:

"Some of the holes are unique and playing them is a game all by itself, whereas a few others are a bit more conventional in comparison. This leads to a somewhat jerky rhythm, the routing doesn't flow effortlessly like at most other world class courses. The many different architects appear to have been pointed at local issues. It seems that in the last 100 years there has been no interest to look at the whole picture, perhaps rightfully so."

It's an issue of personal preference how much weight this issue ultimately carries. I can see Deal dropping out of a Top 100 list because of it, but golfers playing "hole by hole" and not "the course" probably wouldn't mind at all.


What I didn't quite understand was Tom's notion that Deal didn't have enough strengths. There are a number of features that I have never seen on any other course. The fairway bunkering and green of #3 is an example, as is the running approach to #16 or the crumpled fairway of #17. I can see Deal succumbing to a few weaknesses, but it does provide a handful of totally unique situations.

Ulrich (opinion based on 5 rounds)

Ulrich, I have always respected your opinions and views.  I guess my rebuttal for Deal would start with this:

Flow according to the acclaimed psychologist Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (chick sent me hi phonetically) is the mental state of operation in which a person in an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity.

Now I know your critique was meant to explain the rhythm and feel of the golf course (you feel it gets pedestrian in spots) after leaving you sequestered in some "unique" experiences.  That is why I brought up the psychology of flow because the first time I played Deal I felt what Csikszentmihalyi describes and it had nothing to do with the scorecard.  It is in fact the reason I joined--more on that in a second.

The great writer Steven Pressfield believes every great pitch for a book or a movie can come down to 3 elements.. You can describe it in 3 acts.. For example:


Here’s Moby Dick in three acts:

1. Ahab sets out after the whale.

2. Ahab chases the whale to the ends of the earth.

3. Ahab and the whale duke it out to the death.

Act One is the hook. “A priest, a rabbi and a gerbil walk into a bar … ” The purpose of the first act is to engage the audience. The greatest Act One ever is a roller coaster. Up, up, up and then … over the falls! You’re hooked.

Two other aspects of a great beginning: it must be unique and it must make a promise. A great fishing lure is a shiny, eye-catching object that makes the prey think, “Ah, a delicious meal!”

So let me do this for Deal:

Act 1- Holes 2-10, you play thru the landscape and dunes--akin to playing the orb over nature as the shepards did in the origins of the game back at St. Andrews.  It is this which makes Deal unique and subsequently superior to a course like Birkdale with its huge dunes adjacent to the playing field.  Also this thin ridge peters out, building from the crescendos of the all world 3rd green (and hummocks before), the pulpit green at holes 4 and 6 and the great angles on 10. (THE HOOK)

Act 2- A brief soliloquy at 11.. Some will say this starts at 8, some will say at 9 but as I've said before there are no indifferent shots at Deal followed by another indifferent shot.. We have described the great approach to #7 above, #9 is followed by the the Sir Guy Campbell's depiction of greatness by the "blow of an angel's wing" at #10 and #11 has the Roman Road plus the great approach/green site at #12.  To me the Old Course would suffer your disruption in flow at the 9th and 10th, two holes while drivable I don't find thrilling and gulp a bit pedestrian.

Act 3--The finishing 4 starting at 15-- Back in the dunes with thrilling shot at 15,16,17 and great greens--#15 works away from you and needs a shot that dies at the front ridge, #16 I agree with Peter Allen as the best green in all of links golf, #17 is a wonderful natural punchbowl).  I think the 18th green requires more artistry than people who have only played the course several times know.. You can drive into the ditch and the green is not receptive at time if your do run it up the left side.  The recovery shots on 18 are also quite fun.-- NOEL GOT HOOKED, SOLD ETC

For me Deal flows, it keeps me switched on all the time and I have "condensed flow from the vapor of its nuances" on all shots.  For example 8 is the only shot at the sea, surrounded by bunkers and requiring a hard fade into the southwesterly.  The drives on #9s and #11 get critiqued for being similar but the doglegs are at much different angles (just look at an aerial).  

What inspired me to join Deal and to write about it here a decade ago was that when I finished playing it I found I had played a game of chess with not only a cruel taskmaster (holes 8,12,14,15) but with a girl who is a tawdry affair candidate (holes 3,6,16) and a harlot (holes 1,2,17) and not a plain Jane but holes a links apologist will love (holes 7,9,11).  So I felt flow, I was into every shot and it appealed to my golfing psychology.

I realize many will not experience that and some think Deal isn't "pretty".  But do what Mark Chaplin does sometimes and what I do now.  Walk along the beach and eventual sea wall to the course and then over the landform to the clubhouse.  If that isn't beautiful or inspirational, than I don't know what is.  When you stand in the low points of the dunes on holes like 2,3,15,16 is it not some of the best golfing grounds in the world?  I will submit in my experience one is.  But still this won't get many to admit Deal's beauty so I'll leave it to Darwin who said the larks always sounded louder at Deal cheek by jowl on Pegwell Bay than anywhere else. When the sun comes out and I see the cliffs of Ramsgate and hear the birds sing after a summer equal and look out upon that azure blue water from the 4th tee, I feel like Matthew Arnold did (Dover Beach).  Maybe the larks know something..


Or maybe my brain has had too much Peyote..

Tuco/Noel

Tuco has all this just right.   I really loved the constant challenge at Deal, there are few simple shots but a hack like me can still make some pars and have a great time.

[Sev K-H Keil]

To me Deal is a World top 10 (drinking) club with an adjacent top 100 (or higher in my book) golf course.

We just spent a weekend at the club with terrible weather and still had a world-class time even without playing much golf --- so, sorry to be so superficial, but while I don't need (or want) an American service mentality at Deal, the bar opening hours and the 7 day hut are major factors for me to make the trip down to the Kent coast.

My compliments and a big 'thank you' to the wonderful team at Deal --- keep up the good work (starting at 8AM).

[Ulrich Mayring]

I can understand the reasoning behind the cost structure. Club traditions and a strong social element are hard to come by these days. Hopefully visitors will agree with those values and not feel they are paying for services that primarily the members avail themselves of.

Ulrich

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark,

I think the club's focus should be doing everything it can to retain current members and attract new ones from all categories... local, country and overseas. To be honest, I'm not worried about whether there is someone on hand to serve me a gin & tonic at 9:00am when I'm in town. I think you have visited too many posh American clubs and become dazzled by the "anything you want, anytime you want it" service scheme.  

Mike - just because you can't eat full English fry ups anymore don't take it out on us!   I'm sorry but I just don't think you understand this one - likening the availability of early morning drinking at a traditional English club to an indulgence like what you would find at a full service US country club is the wrong analogy. It's part of the club fabric - and all exists to promote the really strong social element that is the hall mark / cornerstone of the club. In any event, having the bar open for an extra couple of hours in the morning comes at a pretty negligible cost relative to the benefits of being able to enjoy this aspect of club life.

if there are savings to be made, let them be made elsewhere!

OK, so be it. I used to start drinking on golf outings at 8:30am when I was in college and thought it was cool, so I guess I could learn to do it again.

[Carl Nichols]

I assume £155 is the so-called unaccompanied guest fee?  What's the fee if you play with a member?  [I remember playing the Royal Portrush Valley with a member we had met and only paying something like £10, compared to £120 or so for the Dunlace course when we played w/o a member.]

[Mark Pearce]

Carl,

In the UK the terminology tends to be guest (accompanied guest of a member) and visitor (not a guest of a member and not accompanied).  And yes, the £155 will be the visitor fee.  I'm sure one of the 174 Deal members on the board will provide details of the guest fee.

[Mark Chaplin]

With the exception of Chicago GC and Shinnecock I think the US clubs are following our model not the other way around, although I doubt dinner for 21 finishes at 2am very often at those clubs. The difference is we have far, far fewer staff. As I said earlier second club membership is an indulgence for a discerning market. If they want a burger in a motel like clubhouse for lunch there are other clubs that can cater perfectly for them.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I'll never forget the formal dinner we had at Deal during BUDA. I guess the UK contingent will not remember it in any special way, but for me it was a bit of an eye opener. Perhaps these kinds of experiences would not be possible with a different fee structure (although we hardly paid any money for taking part in BUDA (although travel costs are always a lot higher than fees anyway)).

Ulrich

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'll never forget the formal dinner we had at Deal during BUDA. I guess the UK contingent will not remember it in any special way, but for me it was a bit of an eye opener. Perhaps these kinds of experiences would not be possible with a different fee structure (although we hardly paid any money for taking part in BUDA (although travel costs are always a lot higher than fees anyway)).

Ulrich

I think it was at a Deal dinner where they coined the phrase "If you can remember you weren't really there...." 
Maybe not, but somethings killed all my brian cells.

I believe the guest rate is £35.    And a pint of milk is the same, including Taxi and tip.

[Ulrich Mayring]

To be fair, that phrase is very old, it was already used in the 1950s with respect to visiting the Ahr (a German wine region): if you visited the Ahr and remember you visited the Ahr, then you didn't really visit the Ahr. I'm sure there are even older usages.

Ulrich

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