[Niall C]

Rich

I'd be surprised if they are that close to shore but don't think it makes any difference in any case re property values.

With regards to how it plays out, its fascinating to watch. Trumps trying to bounce the government into knocking back the wind turbine scheme by way of a PR campaign the same way he managed to bounce them into granting him planning for his development. I doubt its going to work for two reasons, firstly Salmond has too much invested in the renewables industry such that to knock back this scheme would leave him with little credibility. The second reason is that I detect the tide is beginning to turn in terms of how Trump is perceived. The press has given him a lot of free passes to date but as this gather steam I think they are becoming more critical in the usual fashion of build it up and then knock it down.

Bryan


Thanks for the link to the story, and thanks also for the photos. I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. On balance I would rather not see them dotted round the scottish countryside but then I do prefer them to the swathes of planted Christmas trees.

Niall
   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

If you reserve a room at The Inn at Spanish Bay you can choose a room with an ocean view or a forest view.
The rooms with Ocean views are more expensive.

If you reserve any hotel room in Miami Beach you can have an ocean view or a city view, with the ocean rooms being more expensive.

If YOU were building a resort hotel on the dunes by the sea would you want your ocean side rooms to have views of huge wind turbines ?

If these 12 wind turbines are TEST turbines, why not site them elsewhere.
Why site them where they'll have a negative impact on a significant development, a resort hotel, condo's and homes ?

[Richard Choi]

This will all be moot in a few generations as people who think they are eyesore will die out and younger generation who grow up with them will think they are just part of the landscape.

Pretty much how every progress happens throughout times...

[Patrick_Mucci]

This will all be moot in a few generations as people who think they are eyesore will die out and younger generation who grow up with them will think they are just part of the landscape.

Pretty much how every progress happens throughout times...

Richard,

Will people get used to them ?
Sure, but NIMBY will always remain a factor, especially if you've got a financial interest in preserving the aesthetics.

[Richard Choi]

People said the same thing about pretty much everything before (cars, train, planes, skyscrapers, etc.). Nobody complains about the windmill at NGLA.

I don't know why wind turbines would be so special.

[Patrick_Mucci]

People said the same thing about pretty much everything before (cars, train, planes, skyscrapers, etc.).

Nobody complains about the windmill at NGLA.

Richard,

 just when you were making progress you just lost all credibility
I don't know why wind turbines would be so special.

[Jon Wiggett]

This will all be moot in a few generations as people who think they are eyesore will die out and younger generation who grow up with them will think they are just part of the landscape.

Pretty much how every progress happens throughout times...

Richard,

Will people get used to them ?
Sure, but NIMBY will always remain a factor, especially if you've got a financial interest in preserving the aesthetics.

Patrick,

in the 60's they proposed building a large concrete television mast close to where I grew up. It was highly visible for miles around. There was a strong campaign against it but it was constructed anyway.

About 10 years ago it was decommissioned and earmarked for demolition. There was a large campaign to save this local iconic structure. It turned out that several of the main protagonists in this campaign were the same people that were so adamantly against it just 35 years earlier.

I am with Richard in that people will get used to them but do agree with you on your point that due to there size they should be several miles out to sea so as to be an horizon feature at the most.

Jon

[Tony Ristola]

I like Trump.

I may not like everything he says, how he says it, or agree with everything he says, but I love the fact he is an unapologetic Capitalist. He's done far more good than most people on the planet. How many jobs have you created?

As for wind farms; they are brutally ugly, they do not produce electricity when there is no wind, they don't produce electricity when there is too much wind, they are often government/tax payer funded enterprises. If they are such an asset, why the need to subsidize them? I also would like to see a study illustrating how fast these things get permitted compared to other developments.

As one African said about "alternative energy"... (paraphrasing)... oh, it's ok to run a fridge, but you can't develop any kind of industry from them.

If wind farms are so great, why not plaster the entire coast with them and start at St. Andrews?

I'd be pissed too if someone did that to a course I owned... and one course in the countryside I built... they plopped one of these ugly propellers directly behind the first green, a few hundred meters away. Instead of cherishing the view of an old stand of oaks behind the green... now you get the added benefit of pure ugliness towering over the 100-year old oaks. (projectile vomit icon)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Leave Donald in Scotland. It gives Pat something to talk about and keeps him away from us. He like any used car salesman turned real estate jockey/reality tv fool will say anything to get attention.

[Tim Johnson]

Wind-farm subsidies: “They’re being subsidised massively by the UK, and without UK subsidies Scotland will go broke.”

Kinda funny Trumpy would make this statement, the guy has filed for bankruptcy protection four times in his life yet he still claims to be an expert on many things. He is a living subsidy.

As with many issues related to global warming, it  depends on which camp you want to back. With respect to this issue, it seems both sides have their points so who do I believe is telling more of the truth? Are we heading to global destruction using current methods of electricity generation so should we start looking at other ways i.e Wind Farms or is the world fine and we can continue on with our current methods...nuclear power, gas powered plants etc.

Personally, I am leaning towards the green on this issue. Having no ocean front property makes my vote useless as I have no property that can lose its value. Having said that, I would have no problem playing and enjoying the view at RA as it is the cost of going green in today's society. One mile out to sea is not really going to affect my enjoyment of RA or any other course that may have this issue. Wouldnt waste my time or money at Trumps course just out of respect to all the other courses that I have had the pleasure to play and enjoy for less than what he will charge.

Given his history and ego, I think there is something else going on here more than the windfarms, he doesnt want to build the hotel and houses so he using this issue as an out to save face.

[Niall C]

Niall,

If you reserve a room at The Inn at Spanish Bay you can choose a room with an ocean view or a forest view.
The rooms with Ocean views are more expensive.

If you reserve any hotel room in Miami Beach you can have an ocean view or a city view, with the ocean rooms being more expensive.

If YOU were building a resort hotel on the dunes by the sea would you want your ocean side rooms to have views of huge wind turbines ?

If these 12 wind turbines are TEST turbines, why not site them elsewhere.
Why site them where they'll have a negative impact on a significant development, a resort hotel, condo's and homes ?

Patrick

I'll make this quick as Im going for a game at Old Moray tonight. Which BTW is a fabulous course with great sea views where you can see oil rigs, trawlers and all sorts.

This hotel will have no comparison in Aberdeen. The punters that stay there will either be there for the golf or are in the oil business therefore they won't give two hoots about the wind turbines even if they notice them. The hotel operator won't give a toss either as long as the rooms are booked and the property investors won't care either as long as the returns are right.

As for your last question, why should the turbine developers care about Trumps development ? After all Donald was quite happy for his development to have a very negative impact on his neighbours.

Niall

[Niall C]

I may not like everything he says, how he says it, or agree with everything he says, but I love the fact he is an unapologetic Capitalist. He's done far more good than most people on the planet. How many jobs have you created?

Tony

Let me also ask a question, how many jobs did Trump destroy, not only in his own companies but also in other companies who got stiffed when he went Chapter 11 ? I'm an unashamed capitalist as well but that doesn't mean I have to give evry money making scheme a free pass.

Niall

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a documentary by simple people who live near a wind farm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNxvkrgoPLo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utFV2ukOtU&feature=relmfu

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall and Tim,

Trump never filed for personal bankruptcy.

He filed chapter 11, a reorganization, on four occassion for his hotel/casinos in Atlantic City/NYC.
which remained operational, so no jobs were destroyed as you and others incorrectly claim.

Evidently you don't know the difference in the types of bankruptcies.
He filed chapter 11 which permits him to continue to operate the business versus chapter 7 which would require you to liquidate the business.
his filing was debt related

You don't like Trump and as such present false and misleading arguments in order to express your dislike.

To maintain that there is no difference in the view and values of a pristine coastline, one you're trying to protect from Trump, and the same coastline littered with wind turbines tells me that your dislike of Trump has caused you to lose your objectivity.

No one claimed he was Mother Theresa, but don't make up inaccurate, misleading or false stories about him.

What I find comical is that those who objected to Trumps project on the basis of it being an eye sore have no objection to scarring the same  visual of the coast with a farm of giant wind turbines.

I wonder, if it was a Coore & Crenshaw project would the same sentiments have arisen ?

[Kalen Braley]

Look no further than his own courses to find eye sores....what a contrived piece of caca!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

Have you played the course you pictured ?

The eye sore seems the most offensive in the background, where the wind turbines would be

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Have you played the course you pictured ?

The eye sore seems the most offensive in the background, where the wind turbines would be

i haven't played it, but I've been there and stopped in and took a look around.

Even my wife, who doesn't play asked "whats the deal with the waterfalls.  They are really ugly and hideously fake".

Thats good enough proof for me! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fazio employed artificial water falls at the Vintage Club in Palm Springs.

Perhaps that's where the idea took hold.

Fazio's work at Shadow Creek (# 17) probably gave water falls more credibility.

Looking at the photo, the homes seem more unattractive than the waterfall.

[Sean_A]

Niall and Tim,

Trump never filed for personal bankruptcy.

He filed chapter 11, a reorganization, on four occassion for his hotel/casinos in Atlantic City/NYC.
which remained operational, so no jobs were destroyed as you and others incorrectly claim.

Evidently you don't know the difference in the types of bankruptcies.
He filed chapter 11 which permits him to continue to operate the business versus chapter 7 which would require you to liquidate the business.
his filing was debt related

You don't like Trump and as such present false and misleading arguments in order to express your dislike.

To maintain that there is no difference in the view and values of a pristine coastline, one you're trying to protect from Trump, and the same coastline littered with wind turbines tells me that your dislike of Trump has caused you to lose your objectivity.

No one claimed he was Mother Theresa, but don't make up inaccurate, misleading or false stories about him.

What I find comical is that those who objected to Trumps project on the basis of it being an eye sore have no objection to scarring the same  visual of the coast with a farm of giant wind turbines.

I wonder, if it was a Coore & Crenshaw project would the same sentiments have arisen ?

Pat

I wonder if C&C would have taken this project on?  I always found it curious that Trump didn't get one of the darlings of the GCA world to do this project. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me also ask a question, how many jobs did Trump destroy, not only in his own companies but also in other companies who got stiffed when he went Chapter 11 ?

NONE.

It was a reorganization of the debt, operations remained intact.

I'm an unashamed capitalist as well but that doesn't mean I have to give evry money making scheme a free pass.

Scheme ?

What "scheme" ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

If I ever get the opportunity to ask that question, I will.

It's certainly an interesting subject.

How did Trump decide on which architect to use for each project ?

He's not one prone to spinning the wheel of chance.

[Niall C]

Patrick

Re your post #63. I've never claimed anything regarding jobs lost when Trump went Chapter 11, I merely asked a question. And BTW when asking how many jobs were lost, I wasn't just referring to his company, I was referring to other companies who got stiffed on money owed by Trumps company. In this country we don't have Chapter 11 but we have something similar and when a company goes down, even where it continues to trade in administration, its not unusual for the knock on effect to cost jobs with suppliers.

I also haven't said anything about liking or not liking Trump. I don't watch his programmes and I've never met the guy. If you've read previous posts of mine you will note that I consider the real culprits in this debacle to be the politicians, both at a local and governnment level.

Niall

ps. "scheme" is property parlance in the UK for a proposed development and isn't a derogatory terms as I suspect you are inferring.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

I haven't heard of any trickle down problems affecting the banks and debt holders' when Trump filed.
That doesn't mean there weren't any, but if there was, I would think the media would have been front and center with that news, especially when he was a Republican candidate.

The fact is, by filing Chapter 11, and continuing to operate, jobs were retained, not destroyed.

Atlantic City is and continues to be a unique situation

You're right, "scheme" and other words can have different connotations.

There's no doubt that he's a polarizing figure, but I wonder if another entrepreneur, a well respected local developer, had put forth this plan, if he would have encountered the same resistance ?

[Rich Goodale]

Pat

The sad fact is that there are no local developers in Scotland who have the chutzpah or vision of a Trump.  It is no surprise that all the best new courses developed in Scotland (Loch Lomond, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Renaissance) have been driven by American developers.  For all its proud history of innovation and invention, Scotland today is a country with an economy dominated by the public sector and controlled by bureaucrats, most of whom couldn't spell entrepreneurship, much less recognise it even when it hit them in the face.

Rich

[Mark_F]

The sad fact is that there are no local developers in Scotland who have the chutzpah or vision of a Trump.  It is no surprise that all the best new courses developed in Scotland (Loch Lomond, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Renaissance) have been driven by American developers.  For all its proud history of innovation and invention, Scotland today is a country with an economy dominated by the public sector and controlled by bureaucrats, most of whom couldn't spell entrepreneurship, much less recognise it even when it hit them in the face.

Rich,

Maybe they just think Scotland already has enough golf courses. 

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