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Jeff_Brauer

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Who enjoys golf the most?
« on: April 24, 2012, 08:37:23 AM »
Based on both the TEPaul thread and Pat's post this morning about his new theory, I thought I would bring this up....

Who, if any, enjoys golf more -

The muni player or the club player?

Although any "evidence" any of us can offer is probably anecdotal, I tend to believe the muni guys, particularly seniors, enjoy their rounds more.  It seems the club guys amost feel a sense of entitlement, tend to criticize more even though they have it better in course, service, maintenance, etc.  Lastly I think they tend to talk business more.

I often see muni senior players just having a blast on their mid to low level courses, walking, not hitting it particularly far or well, etc., but still enjoying it.

Any takes on this topic?  Granted, its based on overly broad generalizations, but its an interesting discussion point as to what part of your enjoyment of golf comes from your play vs. where you play.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2012, 08:41:59 AM »
I can't imagine anyone enjoying golf more than me.  I like everyone I meet or see at my club.  Everyone treats me like they are happy to see me.  I play when I want exactly as fast or slow as I choose.

I don't think Ghandi could play at a muni and not find someone to piss him off.

jeffwarne

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 08:44:38 AM »
Based on both the TEPaul thread and Pat's post this morning about his new theory, I thought I would bring this up....

Who, if any, enjoys golf more -

The muni player or the club player?

Although any "evidence" any of us can offer is probably anecdotal, I tend to believe the muni guys, particularly seniors, enjoy their rounds more.  It seems the club guys amost feel a sense of entitlement, tend to criticize more even though they have it better in course, service, maintenance, etc.  Lastly I think they tend to talk business more.

I often see muni senior players just having a blast on their mid to low level courses, walking, not hitting it particularly far or well, etc., but still enjoying it.

Any takes on this topic?  Granted, its based on overly broad generalizations, but its an interesting discussion point as to what part of your enjoyment of golf comes from your play vs. where you play.

An interesting discussion and difficult to generalize
There are truly passionate golfers in both groups.

While there is merit to saying the muni golfer puts up with more to support his passion, it could also be argued that as a golfer becomes more proficient he finds a way to join a club to indulge his passion.
Remember, not all muni golfers are passionate seniors or serios golfers, particularly on weekends ;D

There are definitely many souless golfers on private clubs also, simply out there because it's the thing to do-it's difficult tp categorize.
Perhaps VK could chime in on this one ;)

I will say I prefer the vibe at (many) public courses, but perhaps that's just the cart access talking ;D ;D ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 08:54:32 AM »
I went to practice my putting for about a half hour on Sunday at around 12:30 pm and found myself sharing the putting green with about a dozen and a half gentlemen--most retired, I think--from the NYPD and NYFD.  The banter, cackling, ball-busting, side bet-making and general air of excitement--even on a damp day when they knew it'd be cart path only--made it hard for me to believe people could enjoy the game more than they.  They were 100% in-tune with the great social nature of the game.

Then again, I played nine holes after work by myself in about 70 minutes and shot a couple under par.  So at 7:15 pm last night, I wouldn't say anyone enjoys the game more than I do!  ;D

I may say different if I shoot 41 tonight, though...
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 08:57:43 AM »
Jeff,

I don't think it makes a difference.

Love of the game is not rooted in where you play

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 09:19:52 AM »
To say it doesn't matter where you play is like saying it doesn't matter where you go the theater.

PCCraig

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 09:36:28 AM »
Lastly I think they tend to talk business more.

They do? In my experience at private clubs business talk is minimal to say the least.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2012, 09:39:28 AM »
Pat,

Also not sure that love of game = how much you enjoy it........Case in point possibly being Tour Pros, who love the game so much they make it their living, and then, it becomes work, which is never as much fun as play, no?

Pat,

I have been at clubs where they specifically require little business talk, since that has some tax and legal ramifications under IRS codes, and of course, I cannot vouch for the discussions present in the millions or rounds played each year!  Certainly a friendly grudge match for $10 might spur a single mindedness of purpose that would eliminate outside distractions.  And, playing like its the Ryder Cup or something important can be very enjoyable variation from the drink a beer, needle your buddy kind of golf.
 
John,

Sometimes I am dissapointed in movies that get a lot of hype, and pleasantly surprised by ones where I expect little.  My first post hinted at that, in that the more often you play good golf courses (or experiences) the more you raise your hopes and tend to focus on the fewer negatives that are there.  In general, high expectations lead to lower enjoyment, IMHO.

That said, I have relayed the story of Tom Watson's approach to tournament or any round of golf.  Trys to make each round a work of art.  Starts the day before by prepping, eating right, sleeping enough.  Before the round there is the proper meal, practice, gearing up, checking requirements, studying (again) strategy, etc.  During the round display perfect etiquette.  I do have the impression he enjoys golf by doing all that, and the back slappers might not enjoy it as much!  

I often remind my self of that, and it is fun to approach golf that way.  Certainly much better than rushing up late, changing shoes at the car, skipping stretching, talking business, etc.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Martin

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2012, 09:50:30 AM »
Pat,

Also not sure that love of game = how much you enjoy it........Case in point possibly being Tour Pros, who love the game so much they make it their living, and then, it becomes work, which is never as much fun as play, no?

Pat,

I have been at clubs where they specifically require little business talk, since that has some tax and legal ramifications under IRS codes, and of course, I cannot vouch for the discussions present in the millions or rounds played each year!  Certainly a friendly grudge match for $10 might spur a single mindedness of purpose that would eliminate outside distractions.  And, playing like its the Ryder Cup or something important can be very enjoyable variation from the drink a beer, needle your buddy kind of golf.
 
John,

Sometimes I am dissapointed in movies that get a lot of hype, and pleasantly surprised by ones where I expect little.  My first post hinted at that, in that the more often you play good golf courses (or experiences) the more you raise your hopes and tend to focus on the fewer negatives that are there.  In general, high expectations lead to lower enjoyment, IMHO.

That said, I have relayed the story of Tom Watson's approach to tournament or any round of golf.  Trys to make each round a work of art.  Starts the day before by prepping, eating right, sleeping enough.  Before the round there is the proper meal, practice, gearing up, checking requirements, studying (again) strategy, etc.  During the round display perfect etiquette.  I do have the impression he enjoys golf by doing all that, and the back slappers might not enjoy it as much!  

I often remind my self of that, and it is fun to approach golf that way.  Certainly much better than rushing up late, changing shoes at the car, skipping stretching, talking business, etc.

Jeff- When I have to commit as much time and mental energy as Tom Terrific in an effort to try to make each round a work of art then the game loses an awful lot of appeal for me. If you think that Tom loves the game more than many of us on this board for the way he approaches it than I think you are missing something. If I drive three hours to meet my buddies,get caught in traffic and eat at McDonalds on the way and then go directly to the first tee from the trunk are you saying I can`t derive the same amount of enjoyment from the experience as Tom might? I think not.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:47:22 PM by Tim Martin »

jeffwarne

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2012, 09:59:41 AM »
Jeff,

I don't think it makes a difference.

Love of the game is not rooted in where you play

Pat - not so sure. There are certain clubs in the UK where there is a culture of respect for your fellow player and this is in some cases manifested in the idea of having 2 ball only play so that everyone can get around in 3-3.5 hours. There are other elements to this which make playing at a private members club more pleasurable than a muni (more accountability if you don't extend expected courtesies to your fellow player). All of the above help foster a love for the game - playing 5 hour rounds week in, week out on packed courses would eventually end up changing my attitude towards the game. But I've got a thing about slow play - I know not everyone is like that.

Jeff, did these ball-busting guys actually play quickly? Was the course not rammed?

Brian,
I think you mean Tim as he was referring to the ballbusters ;)

Regarding 2 balls that get around in 3.5 hours.
Do they have more respect for the game than a 4 some that gets around in 3:45-4?
2 ball speed slots are great, but I don't think I'd want to give up 4 ball matches permanantly
Everybody's got a thing about slow play-it's all relative.


I can't intellgently comment on public course play because when it's crowded at those courses I'm not playing, I'm working.
I'm sure a steady diet of 5+hour rounds would get tiresome
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rich Goodale

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 10:17:11 AM »
Good question, Jeff!

My answer is typically Libran--a combination of the two.  By far the most enjoyable collective golf of my life was with groups at two venues which involved both private members and non-accompanied visitors--Royal Dornoch and Half Moon Bay, both in the 1980's.  Outside of those experiences, almost equivalent enjoyment has come to me in playing Open golf tournaments where members and visitors compete equally and with great camaraderie, including the BUDA and other events organised by GCA members.  As enjoyable as it can be, playing at any of the courses I have belonged to only with fellow members has lacked the je ne sais quoi that variety brings to any part of life.  When I rule the world, there will be no exclusively private nor exclusively public golf courses/clubs.  Fat chance that will ever happen..... ::)

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 10:28:38 AM »
Jeff - I really believe this: those who enjoy golf the most are those with the capacity to enjoy it most. And that capacity is built upon and based upon many factors (most of which I can only guess about/speculate on).  One of the pleasure of this website is reading between the lines from so many posts/posters and sensing how many of us have been blessed with that capacity.  I have a feeling that golf itself may be responsible, i.e. that the very playing of golf increases the human capacity to enjoy not only golf but many other things besides -- much like the loving of even one thing eventually increases our capacity to love.  And, like they taught us in Sunday school, I think an embittered spirit (maybe the muni player who hates being a muni player) and a prideful spirit (maybe the member of Pine Valley who thinks too highly of himself merely because of that membership) will equally dampen and eventually deaden that capacity.  

Peter
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:49:51 AM by PPallotta »

Mike Hendren

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 10:46:17 AM »
I can't imagine anyone enjoying golf more than me. 

Barney, I immediately thought of you.  Nice self-awareness.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Garland Bayley

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 10:51:38 AM »
To say it doesn't matter where you play is like saying it doesn't matter where you go the theater.

Apparently, you don't like golf.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 10:59:29 AM »
To say it doesn't matter where you play is like saying it doesn't matter where you go the theater.

Apparently, you don't like golf.


One way I measure a good time is if I want to punch someone within earshot in the nose.  I like to play golf, watch movies and make love to my wife outside of that measure.  Have you been to a movie theater lately?

Jim Sherma

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »
Having lived on both sides of the conversation I think the key is the game that one's in and not the venue. A good game with a large active group of decent players is the holy grail in my opinion. It's my experience that this is most likely to happen at a public course because of access and ability to attract new blood on a regular basis. A scratch game I played in for years on a decent public layout used to regularly attract some good private club players on the weekends because they could not get a similar experience at their clubs. The clubs in question were certainly better layouts, both architecturaly and in terms of condition. I am sure that there are some clubs that are "players" clubs and have active games, but for most local clubs I think it's more of the exception rather than the norm.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2012, 12:40:48 PM »
Jeff, Rick Reilly's "Missing Links" covers this topic exceptionally well.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ben Sims

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2012, 12:53:18 PM »
Jeff,

I don't think it makes a difference.

Love of the game is not rooted in where you play

Agree. 

However, if your love is golf courses, then it does matter.  I love golf courses themselves as much or more than hitting the shots.  Going to great courses and seeing what makes them great is just like any art lover finally getting their day in the Grande Gallerie at The Louvre.   

But you're right, if it is playing the game alone that you love, then club golfers vs. muni golfers isn't an apt comparison.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2012, 12:59:14 PM »
As someone who is not a club member, but hopes to be someday, I can say that the rounds that I have played with members at their clubs have been fantastic experiences. These people are very proud of their club and have a sense of pride that, IMO, increases their enjoyment of the game. On the same note, I think it really depends on what muni player you are speaking of. A lot of muni players that don't get out enough and have unreasonable expectations are actually usually very frustrated and aren't having a particularly good time because they keep topping the ball. Then there are the muni players who are very similar to the club players but cannot afford to join clubs, but who enjoy their local club just as much as any  club member. I don't think it is so much about location as it is about frame of mind.

Niall C

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2012, 01:28:36 PM »
Jeff,

I don't think it makes a difference.

Love of the game is not rooted in where you play

Patrick

While that is undoubtedly true, I've come to the view that your outlook changes with the type of course you play, which for me essentially boils down to a tendency to judge the big, championship courses while playing them while playing the scruffy muni/small courses I'm happy simply to enjoy them. I suspect that others might have a similar outlook.

Niall

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2012, 01:46:01 PM »
Upon further reflection and thinking of a gentleman I caddied for a couple times last summer, I'm going to say that dentists enjoy golf the most. Huge difference between looking into people's mouths Monday through Friday and then getting to be outside on the weekend.  The dentist I'm thinking of is a 16 handicap and chipped in three times the first time I caddied for him.  Huge contrast to the denim merchant I caddied for who hit one bad shot and then looked down at a patch of grass that was slightly bare and exclaimed, "I pay $20,000 a year for THIS?!"  I never wear jeans and I never will.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Bill Seitz

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2012, 02:36:15 PM »
Based on both the TEPaul thread and Pat's post this morning about his new theory, I thought I would bring this up....

Who, if any, enjoys golf more -

The muni player or the club player?

....

I often see muni senior players just having a blast on their mid to low level courses, walking, not hitting it particularly far or well, etc., but still enjoying it.

Any takes on this topic?  Granted, its based on overly broad generalizations, but its an interesting discussion point as to what part of your enjoyment of golf comes from your play vs. where you play.

I think the answer is obviously guys like me, a member at a national club with no local membership.  We get the best of both worlds. :)

Stephen Davis

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2012, 02:37:32 PM »
Upon further reflection and thinking of a gentleman I caddied for a couple times last summer, I'm going to say that dentists enjoy golf the most. Huge difference between looking into people's mouths Monday through Friday and then getting to be outside on the weekend.  The dentist I'm thinking of is a 16 handicap and chipped in three times the first time I caddied for him.  Huge contrast to the denim merchant I caddied for who hit one bad shot and then looked down at a patch of grass that was slightly bare and exclaimed, "I pay $20,000 a year for THIS?!"  I never wear jeans and I never will.

 ;D No truer words have been spoken!

V. Kmetz

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Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2012, 02:53:29 PM »
Great question, fun question, unanswerable indefinitive question

I think the person who plays 18 to 36 rounds a year enjoys it most.

I think that bracket of people play enough to register a handicap, have a regular group of friends, and perhaps hit the ball decently so that it's not a torture, but not so frequently that it is a disposable or hum-drum or rapacious thing. I don't think this group gets bored or beaten by the Game or the venues.   I think they can continue to love it because it's likely not too bad a drain on their recreational monies

This group (18-36 rounds) also plays infrequently enough where different courses and a few good rounds really stimulates the appetite for the day of play when those rounds occur.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who enjoys golf the most?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2012, 03:42:28 PM »
Niall, Ben, JakaB, et. al.,

There's a difference in one's love of the game and one's appreciation for the course he's playing, and the two shouldn't be confused.

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