[Peter Pallotta]

Have you ever changed your mind about a golf course you felt strongly and passionately about?

Peter

[Scott Warren]

Peter,

I was thinking about this at the weekend and was thinking of starting a thread.

At lunchtime on my 36-hole days at both Royal St George's and Brora, I was far less impressed with both courses than I was after the afternoon 18.

I am on the record as being a vocal opponent of those who say St Enodoc is world top 100 class -- maybe if I played 36 rather than a solo morning hit-and-run that opinion would be different?

NSWGC is one I definitely feel strongly and passionately about, but after arriving back in Sydney having spent two years seeing great courses in GB&I, Europe and the US, it was abundantly clear that the course was not as good as I had previously believed.

[Mark Saltzman]

Peter,

Yes, absolutely.  A course in our area, Bond Head (North) was a course I hated.  Played it once and hated it and said I'd never go back.  Played it one more time and convinced myself that my first conclusion was right.  But played it again last week and found lots of things I didn't see the two previous plays.  I still think the course has enough flaws and bad holes to keep it from being a top-whatever course, but my general opinion has certainly changed.

[Mike Boehm]

One for me is Rvier's Edge in North Carolina.  After an initial play, I thought it was one of the best courses I ever played.  A lot of wow factor, some great holes along a tidal marsh, and some nice risk/reward chanes along the way.  After not playing it for a couple years and, in between trips, being exposed to a number of outstanding courses, both classic and modern, I was underwhelmed by River's Edge upon return.  Several mundane holes, not much going on and around the greens, and enough awkward spots and shots that it wasn't a place I really had much of a desire to run back out to the tee for a replay round in the afternoon.  Not a terrible course - but certainly not a great one, and not anywhere near as good as I initially thought.

[Adam Clayman]

The first time I played Pacific Grove, (Feb '95) I was told to tee off on the back nine. The cost? $18.73  There was a slight foggy mist off the coast and as I walked tot he tenth tee, a 107 yard, oval green, flat looking hole, I mumbled to myself " No wonder it was 18.73."  As I turned to look out over the 11th, I saw what looked like a ridge line of dunes in the distance, towards that low hanging foggy cloud. I uttered what could only be called a Scooby-Doo like "Hhuh?" In that moment, I changed my mind. As I walked to the eleventh green, I was practically giddy. When I took the boardwalk, through the dunes, to the 12th tee, I was floored and went on the greatest 27 hole day experienced to that point in my life.

Spyglass Hill is another course where my mind has been changed. Having been exposed to it before learning some architectural finer points. But in a way, Spy is a great lesson on the variety of styles, due to the specific terrains.

[Scott Warren]

Scooby Clayman:

As I turned to look out over the 11th .... I uttered what could only be called a Scooby-Doo like "Hhuh?"

The key to successfully reading golf forums undetected while at work is to avoid laughing hysterically. I just failed miserably!

[Michael Goldstein]

Yes - NSW

[Sam Morrow]

"First time I played Cruden Bay I thought it was the greatest course in the world, second time I played it I knew it was the greatest course in the world"

Dr. Anthony Gray

[Sean_A]

Have you ever changed your mind about a golf course you felt strongly and passionately about?

Peter

I don't tend to feel strongly or passionately about many courses (especially from the get go) - even courses which impress me greatly.  Perfect examples  are Kiawah, Co Down & Royal Aberdeen.  All are excellent courses which I am not in the least bothered if I ever see again because they don't provoke any sort of passion in me.  When I do change my mind about courses it is usually to become more passionate or perhaps a better word for me is admiring.  One of the few exceptions for me is Grosse Ile G&CC.  While I still admire the course it is to a much lesser degree today only because I see where it could be much better without altering what the course essentially is.  In other words, the course lacks in details which can make all the difference.    

Ciao

[Steve Strasheim]

I once loved a course that went through a series of alterations to enhance the real estate sales of surrounding lots.

Can't seem to find the spark anymore.

[Brad Isaacs]

I have always loved Banon Dunes. The gorse removal, and softening has not done it any favors in my mind.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Nefyn is one that I no longer rave about - too many ordinary holes, and the spectacular ones are too narrow and rather dangerous. The novelty of dropping down to Ty Coch pub wears off, and playing from a mat on the stump of a lighthouse is not my idea of fun. On my first time of playing, however, I only played the peninsula holes in a wonderful light and I was charmed.

On the other hand, I played Royal Liverpool recently and liked it even more than ever.

I want to go back to Royal Cinque Ports. I haven't played there for ages. I liked it when I played it, but was not as thrilled as many of you obviously are. However, my wife and I walked beside a few holes on the footpath last year on our way to the ferry at Dover and it all seemed so much bigger, its gestures so much grander and the terrain SO inviting. I suspect RCP would shoot up my own rankings.

[DMoriarty]

Have you ever changed your mind about a golf course you felt strongly and passionately about?

I think so, although the passionate part might be pushing it a bit.   One notable example (and one with which many might disagree) would probably be Kapalua Plantation.  An excellent course considering the site, and I was enamored with the course on the first few plays, but over the years each time I have played it I have probably appreciated it less.  A large part of my change in attitude is probably a result of the forced cart ride.  It has become increasingly difficult for me to appreciate golf courses from a golf cart.  Another part of it might be the roller coaster nature of sight, where too much of round sometimes feels like the click-click-click of the long slog up just waiting for the thrill ride back down.

Another example of lesser note is probably Old Works in Anaconda, Montana.   I love the idea of the place, and think that the Nicklaus team deserves credit for capturing/incorporating the local character of the site into the course, and I have played a number of extremely enjoyable rounds there many years ago.  But I returned there a few years ago after many years absent and found the golf to be extremely underwhelming.   There were some good points as I remembered, but there were also many more marginal or questionable holes than I remembered. Overall a disappointment as my experience did not come close to matching my recollections.   

I can think of other similar examples, but might be harder pressed to think of an example that works in the opposite direction . . . Strongly and passionately disliking a course, then changing my opinion to something much more positive.  I'll have to think about that one.

[Sean Leary]

Have you ever changed your mind about a golf course you felt strongly and passionately about?

I think so, although the passionate part might be pushing it a bit.   One notable example (and one with which many might disagree) would probably be Kapalua Plantation.  An excellent course considering the site, and I was enamored with the course on the first few plays, but over the years each time I have played it I have probably appreciated it less.  A large part of my change in attitude is probably a result of the forced cart ride.  It has become increasingly difficult for me to appreciate golf courses from a golf cart.  Another part of it might be the roller coaster nature of sight, where too much of round sometimes feels like the click-click-click of the long slog up just waiting for the thrill ride back down.

Another example of lesser note is probably Old Works in Anaconda, Montana.   I love the idea of the place, and think that the Nicklaus team deserves credit for capturing/incorporating the local character of the site into the course, and I have played a number of extremely enjoyable rounds there many years ago.  But I returned there a few years ago after many years absent and found the golf to be extremely underwhelming.   There were some good points as I remembered, but there were also many more marginal or questionable holes than I remembered. Overall a disappointment as my experience did not come close to matching my recollections.   

I can think of other similar examples, but might be harder pressed to think of an example that works in the opposite direction . . . Strongly and passionately disliking a course, then changing my opinion to something much more positive.  I'll have to think about that one.

Some day Black Rock is going to be your favorite course in the whole world....

[DMoriarty]

Some day Black Rock is going to be your favorite course in the whole world....

Stranger things have happened, but I wouldn't hold your breath . . .

[Joey Chase]

Peter,

I was thinking about this at the weekend and was thinking of starting a thread.

At lunchtime on my 36-hole days at both Royal St George's and Brora, I was far less impressed with both courses than I was after the afternoon 18.

I am on the record as being a vocal opponent of those who say St Enodoc is world top 100 class -- maybe if I played 36 rather than a solo morning hit-and-run that opinion would be different?

NSWGC is one I definitely feel strongly and passionately about, but after arriving back in Sydney having spent two years seeing great courses in GB&I, Europe and the US, it was abundantly clear that the course was not as good as I had previously believed.

Glad you came around on both of those courses,  RSG is right up there with my absolute favorites and Brora is such a cool place to play, even if it may require an unsavory lift clean and place!

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, gents. I was not so much looking for (but am happy to read) specific examples/courses as much I was wondering about the dynamics involved -- the 'forces' at work when someone who likes/dislikes a course intensely comes to change his mind about it.  So far, either explicitely or implicitely, you have described some of those forces/details.

Peter

[Mark Chaplin]

NSW is a good course to study its best bits are truly very good and it's poor holes are very ordinary. Personally I hated the drive on #3 but loved the second shot and green site. Now I believe the green has been ruined making the hole a shocker.

The sixth has an all world setting yet I cannot help but feel it is a very ordinary if not poor golf hole. It could/should be up there with the best seaside holes on the planet.

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, I think it's safe to say that the dynamic of changing ones mind, is universal. Meaning, that a golf course is the same as anything. i.e. a person, a bottle of wine, or a work of art. The re-ocurring motif, or functional dynamic, is familiarity.

What makes a golf hole/course so special, is how it interacts with outside forces, like wind and firmness. Throw in the mental state of the practitioner, and you have this goofy, complex sport, that fits into no model.

[Steve Salmen]

I really liked Tullymore the first time I played it.  The second time I played it, I realized that the reason I liked it was that I played it in my period of knowing less than nothing about golf architecture.

[Mac Plumart]

I remember, about a year ago, playing a golf course that I used to play frequently.  I always thought it was a pretty good golf course.  Nothing amazing,  but pretty solid.

Then one day I was on the 15th hole and I couldn't wait for the round to be over.  I was bored. 

The course was a bland golf course with no strategic decisions to be made at all.  Hit the ball straight and you were okay; slice it, hook it, and you were in trouble.  Go long, leave it short of the green, trouble.  Know the number, hit the number...you were ok.  It was good for me as I was learning how to simply hit the ball and keep it from going off the reservation.  As I figured out how to do that, I needed the mental stimulation of making risk/reward and tactical/strategic decisions...this course didn't have it.

With this my opinion changed from this course is ok/solid, to this course is a total bore.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

Thanks for this thread.  For many years, I've responded to people who thought my Confidential Guide was a disservice, because it was impossible to rate courses when so many of my impressions were formed on a single visit.  And I've always really thought I should just ask them your same question -- how many times have you really changed your mind about a place?

Nobody's perfect.  There are at least a dozen courses I wrote up in The Confidential Guide which I would admit to being wrong about, most of which I rated too low, rather than too high.  But, a dozen errors out of 800 courses isn't too bad.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks again, gents. Interesting that many of the courses you've mentioned went UP in your estimation (as in Tom D's experience with courses he'd later rate higher than he orginally did).  I'm not sure that's my experience, which is sort of a a shame -- it's much more pleasant if/when familiarity breeds appreciation and not contempt.

Peter

[Niall C]

Tom

Of those 800 courses, how many have you beren back to re-rate as it were ?

Niall

[Dan Kelly]

I have a related question:

Has anyone (other than, say, Tom D.) ever changed anyone else's mind about a course?

Tom Doak --

Do you really think there are "rights" and "wrongs" in this business?

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