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Mark_F

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #325 on: April 25, 2012, 06:18:34 AM »
It's not, so enlighten us.
CEO'S' major compensation is in the form of stock, the value of which fluctuates.  Goods manufactured overseas - greater profit margin, higher stock price.  Comprende?

Why should I pay additional dollars to pay for the reckless actions of others.

You wouldn't, if corporate America came to the party and actually paid tax.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #326 on: April 25, 2012, 07:26:01 AM »
It's not, so enlighten us.
CEO'S' major compensation is in the form of stock, the value of which fluctuates.  Goods manufactured overseas - greater profit margin, higher stock price.  Comprende?
   
So it's that simple, just manufacture overseas and stock prices automatically go up ? 

But you said "the money from offshore operations directs more into the pockets of the top of American Society" and I want to know how that "money" gets from offshore back into America ? 


Why should I pay additional dollars to pay for the reckless actions of others.

You wouldn't, if corporate America came to the party and actually paid tax.

You, once again don't know what you're talking about

First of all, if there were more in revenue from corporate taxes the government would spend it, not  pay down the debt.

As to "Corporate America" ?

Without looking it up do you know the difference between a "C" and an "S" corporation ?
An "S" corporation pays no taxes because  it's taxed like a partnership.
Profits are "passed through" and taxed at the individual shareholder level, just like partnerships.
Why should any "S" corporation pay taxes ?

As to "C" corporations, are their any that you are aware of that are evading taxes ?

If public companies pay more taxes, won't they increase the price of their goods and services to the American people ?
Won't earnings go down ?
Ergo the price of the stock, held by Americans and pension funds will go down.

For a guy who doesn't live in America you sure know exactly how to fix all of our financial problems
Have Senators and Congressmen contacted you to solicit your advice on how to quickly solve all of our financial problems ?

Have corporation executives offered to place you on retainer so that your theory on increasing stock prices will make them gazillionairres

Is not the corporate tax in America the second highest in all the world.

Amongst other reasons, did it ever occur to you that companies go overseas because the corporate tax environment in America is so hostile ?
Have you read about the exodus of American Financial entities that are relocating in London due to the harsh regulatory and tax environment in America ?

Raising taxes, corporate and individual, won't accomplish anything without a concurrent reduction in spending

Raising taxes will result in increased spending, not deficit reduction.



jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #327 on: April 25, 2012, 07:34:52 AM »
We'll have a better chance at coming together when we elect a leader who doesn't vocally pit one class against each other and addresses us all as Americans, not as exploiters and victims.
I'm not sure I see one coming in the next cycle either,but I'm ready for some hope and change.
Many of the class he targets want to be part of the solution ,but don't respond well to the negative tone and politics as usual.
I think what you say is basically true.  It would be good if we could find a leader who could straddle the chasm that now exists between conservatives and "liberals" (I am of the opinion that the number of "liberals" in the US is quite small and that most people labeled as "liberals" by conservatives are actually centrists by historical and international standards.)  

But I think our political system has been poisoned by a complex array of factors.

The political system has been profoundly compromised by the influence of money.  The Citizens United decision of the Supreme Court will almost certainly be recorded in history as one of the worst decisions since Dred Scott.  But that decision is just a small part of a much larger problem.

Our population is not very well educated nor well informed about things important to maintaining a democracy.  A democracy doesn't work with an uniformed electorate.  They are too easily manipulated by cynical forces that prey upon their ignorance and fears. The founding fathers were worried about this when they drafted the Constitution.  I think they would be disappointed with what we have become.

Our society has fragmented into many special interest groups and there is a diminished sense of community and shared purpose in the US at the present time.  Fragmented societies do not work particularly well.  Human nature is VERY strongly tribal.  If we do not see our country as "one tribe" we don't really have a country.  I think we may have reached that point.  If so, our future is clouded.

Much of our population has developed a discouraging degree of cynicism and distrust of previously accepted institutions:  government, the legal system, science, economics, medicine, academics, the creative arts.  People with little or no knowledge now feel free to casually reject the opinions of highly regarded members of these institutions with hardly a second thought.  Questioning authority is a good thing.  But one must be reasonably well informed to do so in a legitimate manner.  Much rejection of authority these days comes from people who are manifestly unqualified to be doing so.  

We no longer share a common "fact base".  People with political agendas that are not supported by previously accepted sources of unbiased information have created new "information sources" that generate "facts" that support their belief structures.  As a result, we are no longer arguing over policy choices based on a common set of "facts".  We don't even agree on what the facts are.  This is an untenable situation.  You can't argue policy if you don't agree on the basic underlying facts of the situation.

Etc. Etc. Etc.  

Sorry to be so down about all of this, but I feel as though I am watching the US (and to a certain extent, the rest of the world) descend into a new Dark Ages where superstition and emotion rule over logic and common sense.  

I don't know if any leader is capable of bridging the gap.  I happen to think that Obama is a reasonable and well intentioned but rather inexperienced leader who has not lived up to his promise.  But I think he is as honest a politician can be these days.  I think Romney is a rather sad example of an individual who is willing to sell his soul in order to attain his desired prize: the Presidency.  I don't like people who are willing to compromise their integrity for personal gain.  So I, too, would love to see a transcendant politician who could bridge the gap and bring us together.  I am not sure if one exists.  

I look at the situation in the US today and have come to the conclusion that the system is "not fair".  The successful are rewarded to a greater degree than I believe is necessary to create sufficient incentive for them to strive for success (and I am probably one of them, although not at the highest level.)  The average are struggling.  The poor are not well cared for despite our great wealth.  I think we need to make some significant adjustments to our system if all of us are to have a successful future.  

Kirk,
Nice post.
Thanks for a reasoned discussion.

You had mentioned that no other country has a flat tax because of their regressive nature(on income).
How do you feel about Value added taxes on consumption which are quite high in other countries?
Are they not equally regressive? (not that there's anything wrong with that ;))
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 07:44:54 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #328 on: April 25, 2012, 07:53:31 AM »
Very cool Vinnie.  Very cool!

Although we have different views on certain things, we have quite a few things in common.  I'll keep some of those things private and let you know them in person when we meet.

However, you left one key thing out in your lotto scenario.  Hire me to help you manage that money and make all those things happen...and maybe more importantly to keep you from spending it all/giving it all away and save some for your long-term financial security.   ;)

In all honesty, with all the good things you want to do...it is important for you to remain financial strong to ensure all the things you have going (library, golf course, charities), stay viable as going-concerns.


Vinnie, from our private conversations over the years I know you've got a lot of big stuff to take care of.  Best of luck.  If it helps, someone down South is thinking about you frequently.

Also, per your request for privacy...I'll bow out of this thread and let you get back to your real life.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #329 on: April 25, 2012, 07:57:53 AM »
 ??? ::) ???


Don't think this is the forum for personal assaults or political rants . Just my opinion for what it's worth !

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #330 on: April 25, 2012, 08:35:03 AM »
Mac,


You got it and thanks for letting me actually express what I (guiltily) admit I have thought of from time to time.

I think of Dr Pierce (no, not Haweye from M*A*S*H) but Dr. Pierce from the Brooks memorial home in "Miracle on 34th street" when they have the last party christmas morning (and Natalie wood doesn't get her house, she thinks) but Dr. Pierce gets the X-Ray machine, the look on his face -- wow that's what I want for my money.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #331 on: April 25, 2012, 08:47:13 AM »

When Scotland goes to the polls to decide if it really wants total independence, perhaps those disillusioned with the state of your country may like to join Scotland as its first Colony. Just think you get the best of both worlds as we have already cleared the poor off the land, taxed the rich to leave the country and close to running out of oil. So not much to argue about except the standing of The R&A and should women be allowed in.

The cost I am afraid would be to curtail the use of carts and a promise to play golf, Scottish style but otherwise just think no more import duty on the “Water of Life” (whisky). The home of golf could be your second home too.

Well at least that gets us back to the subject of golf and being friends again. ;) 

Melvyn

Kirk Moon

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #332 on: April 25, 2012, 09:08:41 AM »
Kirk,
Nice post.
Thanks for a reasoned discussion.

You had mentioned that no other country has a flat tax because of their regressive nature(on income).
How do you feel about Value added taxes on consumption which are quite high in other countries?
Are they not equally regressive? (not that there's anything wrong with that ;))
Yes.  Consumption taxes are typically regressive.  It is possible to construct a flat or progressive consumption tax, but I don't believe that this is common.

In my post above I erroneously stated that "no" countries employ a flat tax sceheme.  There are, in fact, a few.  A number of the countries in Eastern Europe who were formerly a part of the USSR, Russia, parts of the former Yugoslavia, and Iceland currently have flat tax schemes. None of the large industrialized countries employ one.  

Taxation theory is a mysterious and dark art that I don't pretend to be an expert on.   Unfortunately, many politicians who speak loudly and confidently about taxation don't seem to be particularly expert on the subject either.  

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #333 on: April 25, 2012, 09:22:49 AM »
Several men are in the locker room of a golf club. A cellular phone on a bench rings and a man engages the hands-free speaker function and begins to talk. Everyone else in the room stops to listen.
 
MAN: "Hello"
 
WOMAN: "Hi Honey, it's me. Are you at the club?"
 
MAN: "Yes."
 
WOMAN: "I'm at the shops now and found this beautiful leather coat. It's only $2,000; is it OK if I buy it?"
 
MAN: "Sure, go ahead if you like it that much."
 
WOMAN: "I also stopped by the Lexus dealership and saw the new models. I saw one I really liked." MAN: "How much?"
 
WOMAN: "$90,000."
 
MAN: "OK, but for that price I want it with all the options.
 
WOMAN: "Great! Oh, and one more thing... I was just talking to Janie and found out that the house I wanted last year is back on the market. They're asking $980,000 for it.
 
MAN: "Well, then go ahead and make an offer of $900,000. They'll probably take it. If not, we can go the extra eighty-thousand if it's what you really want. "
 
WOMAN: "OK. I'll see you later! I love you so much!"
 
MAN: "Bye! I love you, too."
 
The man hangs up. The other men in the locker room are staring at him in astonishment, mouths wide open. He turns and asks, "Anyone know whose phone this is?"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #334 on: April 25, 2012, 10:04:19 AM »
VK,

I'm surprised to not see any of it donated to the US Treasury, please help...

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #335 on: April 25, 2012, 10:39:28 AM »
Moondog,
Do you not pay taxes on the money you invest???? ;)
Of couse.  And I'm not bitching about it either.  

I'm saying that investment income should DEFINITELY be taxed and probably should not be given favorable treatment compared to earned income.  

I hate to admit it but I actually feel a twinge of guilt when I make more money in a day from my investments than I do from my day job.

Call me crazy.  : )

It's not treated favorably. Investment income is already taxed. If you own part of a company, you are quite obviously paying part of the taxes, regardless of what order it's paid. When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.

I simply and civilly pointed that over the last century in our country, during similar times, the highest income tax rate was substantially higher and the elite class much smaller in number.

This perfectly illustrates the crux of your problem.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 10:41:46 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #336 on: April 25, 2012, 10:59:30 AM »


 When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.


[/quote]

Couldn't all this be solved by Buffett simply giving his secretary a raise? ;)
and perhaps a new title.... ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #337 on: April 25, 2012, 11:03:24 AM »
It's not treated favorably. Investment income is already taxed. If you own part of a company, you are quite obviously paying part of the taxes, regardless of what order it's paid. When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.

George, dividends paid on earnings of a "C" corporation are subject to "double taxation," as you suggest. Capital gains, however, DO receive significant favorable treatment and are precisely the reason some wealthier types pay an effective rate of around 14% while others who are solidly middle class pay an effective rate of twice that.

Also, you and Pat need to study up on "carried interest" and explain how that (a) is fair, and (b) involves the element of "risk" that Pat says needs encouragement.

Kirk, you're analysis in this thread is spot on. Your view on this is the same as mine. I think you and I were once known as "centrists," but in the last decade or so we've been labeled socialists.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #338 on: April 25, 2012, 11:08:24 AM »

... When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.


I tried to decide for myself but can't. Please help. If Buffet makes another dollar, he pays a smaller portion of that dollar in tax than his secretary does on her extra dollar.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #339 on: April 25, 2012, 11:17:10 AM »
VK,

I'm surprised to not see any of it donated to the US Treasury, please help...


He doesn't need to give any extra to the US Treasury because he is spending money helping people by giving a lot of his money away.  This is the fundamental flaw in the thinking of the "tax more" crowd.  They give no credit for and completely put their heads in the sand as to the possibility that these large earners are actually doing great deeds with their money - separate and apart from giving it to the government to do god knows what with it.

I think Pat correctly points out the "tax more" issues on capital investments - but what hasn't been discussed is the impact of these additional taxes on charity as those gifts of goodwill and passion will be the first to go IMO.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #340 on: April 25, 2012, 11:30:33 AM »
It's not treated favorably. Investment income is already taxed. If you own part of a company, you are quite obviously paying part of the taxes, regardless of what order it's paid. When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.

George, dividends paid on earnings of a "C" corporation are subject to "double taxation," as you suggest. Capital gains, however, DO receive significant favorable treatment and are precisely the reason some wealthier types pay an effective rate of around 14% while others who are solidly middle class pay an effective rate of twice that.

Also, you and Pat need to study up on "carried interest" and explain how that (a) is fair, and (b) involves the element of "risk" that Pat says needs encouragement.

Kirk, you're analysis in this thread is spot on. Your view on this is the same as mine. I think you and I were once known as "centrists," but in the last decade or so we've been labeled socialists.

In a literal sense, you are correct. However, that capital has generally been taxed before. Honestly, I don't care much about what the rate is, but I think it is misused by both sides in advancing their own political interests (don't even get me started on how payroll taxes are used by both sides...).

When cap gains rates have been reduced in the past, it has generally benefited the economy (remember the salad days of good ole President Bill just 15 or so years ago?). Taxing capital gains discourages investment in productive activities. If the price I have to pay for a better economy is Warren paying a lower tax rate, I'm happy to pay that cost.


... When Buffett says he is paying a lower rate than his secretary, he is distorting and misleading; you can decide for yourself why.


I tried to decide for myself but can't. Please help. If Buffet makes another dollar, he pays a smaller portion of that dollar in tax than his secretary does on her extra dollar.

It depends on how he makes that dollar. If he pays it to himself in a salary, he most certainly pays at least as high a rate as his secretary.

Perhaps you should contact Warren and tell him to pay himself a higher salary and take less cap gains...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #341 on: April 25, 2012, 11:47:28 AM »
"It depends on how he makes that dollar. If he pays it to himself in a salary, he most certainly pays at least as high a rate as his secretary.  Perhaps you should contact Warren and tell him to pay himself a higher salary and take less cap gains..."

I suspect that that is Buffet's point. He's in a position to obtain most of his income through capital gains or carried interest - an option unavailable to his secretary or most American taxpayers.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #342 on: April 25, 2012, 11:57:07 AM »
"It depends on how he makes that dollar. If he pays it to himself in a salary, he most certainly pays at least as high a rate as his secretary.  Perhaps you should contact Warren and tell him to pay himself a higher salary and take less cap gains..."

I suspect that that is Buffet's point. He's in a position to obtain most of his income through capital gains or carried interest - an option unavailable to his secretary or most American taxpayers.

That option is available to all, unless there is some sort of special language written into the tax code to benefit Warren only.

You don't think it's hypocritical to pay oneself an artificially low salary and then whine about not paying enough tax? All the while benefiting from political favors doled out by the same politicians whose policies he supports?

The expected revenue - and that's assuming static analysis where no one affected changes his behavior - is a but a drop in the bucket of projected deficits. The issue is a distraction designed to get people to emote rather than think, plain and simple.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #343 on: April 25, 2012, 11:59:31 AM »
It's fine if you symbolically want to say anyone who makes over 2mm a year has to pay at least 30% tax if that keeps the VK militia from lighting torches and taking to the streets (and helps Obama to another 4 years).  But what exactly have you accomplished besides taking a pound of flesh from big bad "rich guy" to appease main street over the financial crisis?  It doesn't do dick to solve our deficit problems.  Don't know if you realize it, but there weren't many folks making 2mm/year to begin with and there's even less of 'em now.  Buffet would have a bigger impact on society if he lobbied his fellow members at Augusta to allow women... ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #344 on: April 25, 2012, 12:22:35 PM »
It's fine if you symbolically want to say anyone who makes over 2mm a year has to pay at least 30% tax if that keeps the VK militia from lighting torches and taking to the streets (and helps Obama to another 4 years).  But what exactly have you accomplished besides taking a pound of flesh from big bad "rich guy" to appease main street over the financial crisis?  It doesn't do dick to solve our deficit problems.  Don't know if you realize it, but there weren't many folks making 2mm/year to begin with and there's even less of 'em now.  Buffet would have a bigger impact on society if he lobbied his fellow members at Augusta to allow women... ;)

I hear this argument a lot, in all sorts of different areas. Seems to me like it's a nifty way of avoiding hard decisions. There is no single magic bullet that will solve all of our problems. So JUST raising taxes will only nibble at the issue. JUST reducing military spending is another nibble. JUST reducing the size of the federal government is another nibble. JUST reigning is Social Security or Medicare is another nibble (or maybe more like a bite).

There are probably hundreds of areas where you could say the same thing, and taken individually don't solve much of anything. Taken collectively, however, there is a real impact. And no change will be drastic enough to solve our financial issues overnight. Doing so would further cripple our economy.

Sadly, we have become a society of quick fixes. Anything that looks like it would require a sustained commitment to prolonged belt-tightening is DOA. But it sure looks like that's the only way to really fix the problem (says a guy who knows pretty much nothing about tax law, economics, politics ... I'm really just taking a break and killing time so I don't have to go back to editing a really boring speech I'm supposed to have wrapped up by tonight.)

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #345 on: April 25, 2012, 12:24:28 PM »
Jud, its funny how changing the tax code to raise a few billion in revenue is not significant enough to make it worthwhile, and yet by God we need to cut this program and that program now, now, now so that we can shave a few hundred million off of the deficit.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #346 on: April 25, 2012, 12:47:16 PM »
well, you'd raise 40-50 BB in revenue.  What would be the loss to the economy from the disincentive to invest, lower stock and real estate prices, and fewer luxury purchases?  My guess would be significantly more than that...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #347 on: April 25, 2012, 12:57:15 PM »
Gentlemen, I suspect an agent provocateur of a sort, in Mr V Kmetz.  A literary foil, and someone's hoax to draw out a contrasted discussion to attempt to bring out the great debate of the occupy movement, and an election year trick to try and draw unsuspecting folks into a debate on the merits of all these ideologies.

Mr. Kmetz, even in your student poverty you have a camera or cell phone cam; I request that you go to your caddieshack or whatever they have at WF or just the front door to the clubhouse, and cell phone a photo of yourself with a current NY Times front page clearly in focus.  Then post it!  If you don't know how, e-mail it to me and I'll post it for you.

Should this be the hoax I suspect, it may on one level be a funny story all us GCA.com cronies have a drink over at some future convocation of our elite golfing clubsters.  On the other hand, it may cause some troubling questions as to how far some would go to manipulate political discussion under a false cover to lamely make some half truth propaganda points.

Perhaps it is the old copper in me, and perhaps I know and have seen these sort of counter measures of agent provocateur methods employed by a fearful establishment before.  But, I ask you to consider some to V Kmetz's ramblings about his harried life as an stereotyped university post grad in search of academic validation, and all that irrelevant 'stuff' of the ivory tower rigorous pursuits of liberal arts fine arts studies interjected into long essays of phony class warfare talking points.  

As for these Mucci-esque series of half baked tax law distortions and laughable anxt that guys who hang with Mucci are paying 65% effective rates on their incomes, if you believe that, you should be taxed for gullibility!  On one hand Pat quotes the Supreme on how it iis darn near your patriotic duty to ply all the lobbied tax favoritism that only the upper ranges of wealth can buy, and on the other he claims that all those breaks are to no avail and how these same folks are being decimated by the lowest tax rates in modern history.  GMAFB!  

Where is Tax Attorney extraordinare, Mr. Goldstein when you need him to add a little fact to these teahadist fantasies.  

But, you go V Kmetz, I highly suspect you are a phantom... and many idealists on both sides have been had.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 01:01:50 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #348 on: April 25, 2012, 12:57:48 PM »
Is it ony five days since this thread originated?

Almost whole pages are consumed by one post. No matter that no one is going to change their minds by the lucidity, or otherwise, of the opinions of political opposites.

I would suggest that Ran pulls the plug on this topic and get back to some civility between us.

Bob

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #349 on: April 25, 2012, 01:14:53 PM »
well, you'd raise 40-50 BB in revenue.  What would be the loss to the economy from the disincentive to invest, lower stock and real estate prices, and fewer luxury purchases?  My guess would be significantly more than that...

Jud: To understand how the trickle-down theory works for society as a whole: I suggest going out into your backyard, taking off all your clothes, standing on your head and going to the bathroom.

Please report back on your findings.  :)
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