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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #225 on: April 24, 2012, 10:44:18 AM »
JK:

Is that why relief pitchers are such oddballs?  All that time in the bullpen? 

Like the take on the "collective of idle hands".

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #226 on: April 24, 2012, 10:47:46 AM »
Thanks Shel
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #227 on: April 24, 2012, 10:47:54 AM »
Leave it to Shel to say something erudite just when I'm going to rant aimlessly....

Anthony,

While I agree that we need mechanisms in place to promote the American Dream to all citizens, as SL pointed out, and while giving back is something that I hope to instill in my children, if we truly want freedom, we need to have the freedom to allow for the rich assh*le who thinks of noone but himself.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: False Equivalency
« Reply #228 on: April 24, 2012, 10:50:58 AM »
...For all the Atlas Shugged devotees here, there is a huge distance between working for what you have and every-man-for-himself.

It's one thing to be all chummy to people from 'different walks of life' at your golf club. Quite another to extend those courtesies to someone who doesn't know you, is a different color than you, from a different socio-economic class, expresses their opinions in ways you can't understand and may not like you very much...

And you think Ayn advocated "every-man-for-himself"?

How is the way V spoke of others in his original post any different from what you implicitly criticise in your summary sentence?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #229 on: April 24, 2012, 10:55:12 AM »
Atta boy Shelly!
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #230 on: April 24, 2012, 11:17:21 AM »
But I take great pride and satisfaction that  in our society  families like mine, through the dint of opportunity, luck, hard work and perhaps a little talent were able to move into the mainstream  and enjoy a modicum of success.

I loved your entire post Shel.  But this sentence was my favorite.  I agree with its sentiment and concur that is one of our society's greatest attributes.  But another great aspect of our society is that your have a choice to work hard and apply your talents in any manner you wish.  That may be within business or industry, in athletics, in academia, or you may choose to do nothing.  As I said earlier, whatever floats your boat.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #231 on: April 24, 2012, 11:17:41 AM »
Looks as though I'm going to have to read this thread. It looks ... revealing.

But is it even worth it?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #232 on: April 24, 2012, 11:23:09 AM »
Looks as though I'm going to have to read this thread. It looks ... revealing.

But is it even worth it?

NFW
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #233 on: April 24, 2012, 11:43:15 AM »
For 34 of the 42 years I've been alive, I've either been enrolled in or worked at private schools. At no time in those schools has the gap between rich and poor been so painfully obvious as it is right now. Interestingly, however, it isn't the very poor who are impacted most negatively. Instead, it is the middle-income family.

At least for the Boston-area private schools in the ISL, merit scholarships aren't allowed. All financial aid is need-based. With a boarding tuition of $50,000, it is very likely that a family with an income of $100,000 to $150,000 might qualify for 50% aid. That means they are still on the hook for $25,000. Given the high cost of living in Boston and the fact that there is no tax relief for private school tuition, not many families in that category can afford it.

Instead, it has become much more of an all or nothing approach. You are either full pay or full aid (i.e., the barbell effect). The kinds of kids who are traditionally the bread and butter of these schools ... middle class, smart kids who are three-sport athletes ... are getting squeezed out.

I have always considered myself very much a free market, small government sort of person. What once might have been called a Republican (at least fiscally ... I lean more to the left on social issues). However, it's hard to see much of a free market in effect these days. We are no longer willing to let big companies fail, which some might say is a good thing but it isn't really a free market ("Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell." - Frank Borman). And how we (the government) decide which companies get a bailout and which don't is a shady business.

Similarly, watching politicians hop back and forth from the major financial companies to federal appointments and back again, profiting  all the way, gets me wondering if those Occupier dudes don't have a point.

The playing field is tipped, the deck is stacked ... whatever cliche you want to use. And the person most hurt isn't, I would argue, at the very bottom, because the safety nets we've implemented are so generous and far-reaching. Instead, it's the folks one rung up from the bottom on society's ladder. It's the people who play by the rules and work hard and have been asked to take salary freezes for the last four or five years, which they accept gladly because to not do so might mean that their friend and colleague might get laid off amid downsizing. Meanwhile, the income at the top increases by 95% or whatever the most recent stat was in a series of statistics that change every day depending on who is reporting it.

There was a great article in the Chicago Tribune about the death of facts (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-talk-huppke-obit-facts-20120419,0,809470.story). The fact is that there are more super-wealthy and more people struggling in this country than I've ever seen. (I won't go back to the 1920s or the 1800s, because who the hell really knows what it was like then.)

The fact is that our national debt is astronomical. The fact is that social security and medicare, in their current configuration, are unsustainable. And it seems to me (and I would love to find out I'm wrong) that the only way forward is to increase taxes and decrease the spending of the federal government. The fact is that nearly half in the U.S. don't pay income taxes, and a significant chunk of those who do pay taxes simply can't afford to pay anything more. Those most capable of paying more are those who have most benefited in recent years and have seen their salaries explode beyond imagination. Is it unfair to increase their taxes and only their taxes? The answer is probably yes, but we have painted ourselves into a corner.

I think all of this goes well beyond class jealousy and who gets access to great golf courses. I am very happy with the salary I make. I have more than I need, have my three kids' college tuition saved away, and I can decide whether the $40k initiation fee and $10k annual dues at the nearest private club to me are worth it. I don't begrudge those for whom that kind of expense is a drop in the bucket, and I am ok with the fact that an expense like that is well beyond the reach of many. But I do think the gap between those who can pay and those who can't is growing at a scary rate (getting back to the original post in this thread).

In a democracy like ours, where we as a society generally praise those who are self-made and even sometimes praise inherited wealth (Kennedys are a good example), when it starts to look like the game is rigged, look out. The Occupy movement is probably just the beginning.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #234 on: April 24, 2012, 11:55:12 AM »
Dan,

How many people do you know at the very top of the pyramid whose compensation has exploded to the upside in the last 5 years?  While there are certainly a few (I know of exactly 1, from a dodgy IPO), almost to a man of the large number of 1%ers I know they've all taken a significant hit to their income, not to mention their investments and deferred comp.  I know it's tough to feel much sympathy for a millionaire who used to make $500,000 a year and now makes $100,000, but in percentage terms arguably the working professional classes have taken a huge hit in the bubble bursting, it's just not politically correct to address...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #235 on: April 24, 2012, 12:05:28 PM »
Anthony Butler,

I think the problem you and others have is that you lump in or view equally, all the small and mid-size companies with the IBM's of the world.

Those small and mid-size companies are not giants, but collectively they're who employ the majority of the work force in this country, and the great majority of those companies  are private not public companies.

Those companies are usually run, at least in the first generation, by entrepreneurs who are AT RISK, not managers who have NO INVESTMENT, NO RISK AT STAKE.

There are NO stock options, no fancy compensation packages like golden parachutes, etc., etc.

If the business goes under, they go under with it.
They struggle to make payroll and agonize when they have to terminate an employee, an employee they've been close with for years, unlike giant corporations where the President doesn't know the rank and file employees.

A failure to understand the entrepreneurial spirit in small to mid-size companies and the impact of  stifling or confiscating the efforts of those business owners are leading many to false assumptions, ergo false conclusions.

You'll find out, that as you become enlightened, you'll agree with me more !  ;D

SO, I wish you and others would cease viewing corporate America solely in the context of giant publicly traded companies, it just might change your views.

There is a huge difference between IBM and the companies I reference that has nothing to do with the amount of annual revenue.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #236 on: April 24, 2012, 12:24:41 PM »
Jud,

It's probably statistically irrelevant how many I know. But there are any number of studies out there showing a rapidly expanding gap in income between upper class and middle class. From my own experience in private schools, it almost doesn't matter what we set tuition levels at anymore. The people who can afford $50k can typically pay $80k without feeling it. Similarly, those who can't afford $50k probably can't afford $40k either. Like I said, it's all or nothing.

It should tell you something that after the crash of 2007 and in the years since, at a time when the economy has been in tatters and unemployment has doubled, applications at my school and peers have increased to record highs and we didn't see any surge in those who were full-pay who suddenly were requesting financial aid. On the other hand, we have seen a big increase in applicants who qualify for full aid.

There is nothing worse than getting down to the end of the admission process and looking at the files of 5 exceptional kids, each of whom would have a significant and positive impact on the school, and knowing you only have enough aid money left over for one of them. My school offers more than $3 million in aid, and it isn't enough.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #237 on: April 24, 2012, 12:36:30 PM »
VK -- Earlier I'd suggested that this thread going to 8 pages proved that all of us on this board have too much time on our hands; we're all part of the leisured class, apparently. As the thread gets to 10 pages, I draw a different/additional conclusion, i.e. that as a group (but not including me) we are a very generous and thoughfut lot, and have given your splurt of righteous indignation and puddle of spilled sensibility more attention and respect than, imo, it warrants.  Please write the gca essay you mention; I think you'll feel better; a writer always feels better when he writes.    

Mike S - thanks much for the link you shared; that's a wonderful story. And, even though I'd hadn't meant to denigrate the entire internet age but only those of us on this board (for reducing political/social action to hitting a send button), it was very good for me to be reminded of folks who put energy and resources and love behind their words.  

Peter
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:48:46 PM by PPallotta »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #238 on: April 24, 2012, 12:42:34 PM »
This thread has it all.  I'm impressed with the intellectual capability of our membership.  I'm out of my pay grade when reading Mr. Kmetz and Mr. Paul, and frankly, I'm very happy with that "shortcoming."

Some random bulleted points for fodder.

-My friend Mike Young had a right to do what he did, and I would hope that if my language regarding my chain of command was in the same ballpark as Mr. Kmetz' was about those in the gentry, that someone would remind me of my post and charge.  Free speech is free until is borders on infringing upon others.  Define that line as you may.

-This thread also has people commenting on war and the politics of security.  Which in one hand is assinine and absolutely laughable that some in the socio-economic position they are feel that they have an understanding of it.  On the other, it's is their constitutional right--nay duty--to openly opine on such matters.  But let me be clear, I'm tired of people saying "they knew someone" that was a victim of Sept. 11 2011.  Where's the concern for the others since that date?  I'm ashamed of how disassociated our society has become from those that fight their wars and how insincerely they justify their military's current action with "I knew someone."  I highly recommend Rachel Maddow's Drift.

This thread also confirms for me a sickening and depressing downward trend; we champion the wrong people.  Shock value and inflammatory speech gets readers which in turn causes discussion and argument.  It's a cheap replacement for the real thing.  Ran's choices of interviewees of late seems directly designed to result in the discourse we've seen these past few days.  Choosing Melvyn Hunter Morrow and TEPaul is perfectly in line with the stated mission of this site.  But, I wonder if "frank discussion" has taken a turn for the worse.  Instead of choosing those that would provide very interesting takes on golf architecture, we choose the shock jocks and self-loathing old schoolers.    

PS--Dan Callahan's post #234 is disgustingly good. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #239 on: April 24, 2012, 01:01:27 PM »
Ben,

Point taken.  Let's not forget our men and women in uniform who weren't innocent bystanders but rather chose to risk their lives for our country.  However, given the tens of thousands of dollars I personally have contributed to our defense budget I have a right to comment, ignorant as I may be to the gritty details.  How do you personally feel about the war in Iraq and the necessity of our current 1.4 (?) trillion dollar defense budget and the folks we have stationed in 150 (?) countries besides our own?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:04:39 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #240 on: April 24, 2012, 01:14:43 PM »
Ben,

Point taken.  Let's not forget our men and women in uniform who weren't innocent bystanders but rather chose to risk their lives for our country.  However, given the tens of thousands of dollars I personally have contributed to our defense budget I have a right to comment, ignorant as I may be to the gritty details.  How do you personally feel about the war in Iraq and the necessity of our current 1.4 (?) trillion dollar defense budget and the folks we have stationed in 150 (?) countries besides our own?

Jud,

But I did say that it is your constitutional duty to comment despite any ignorance, percieved or actual, that you may have.  That's the beautiful thing about our beloved Constitution.

Nice try on the last sentence too.  I'm not naive enough to think I can openly comment on that topic.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #241 on: April 24, 2012, 01:17:28 PM »
Fair enough.  Drinks are on me... 8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #242 on: April 24, 2012, 01:18:38 PM »
...This thread also confirms for me a sickening and depressing downward trend; we champion the wrong people.  Shock value and inflammatory speech gets readers which in turn causes discussion and argument.  It's a cheap replacement for the real thing.  Ran's choices of interviewees of late seems directly designed to result in the discourse we've seen these past few days.  Choosing Melvyn Hunter Morrow and TEPaul is perfectly in line with the stated mission of this site.  But, I wonder if "frank discussion" has taken a turn for the worse.  Instead of choosing those that would provide very interesting takes on golf architecture, we choose the shock jocks and self-loathing old schoolers.  

I suspect Ran was trying to improve the discussion on the site by illuminating the human, personal sides of two important figures on the site. It's not his fault that the group let him down by focusing on the wrong things.

I've often thought that if we all knew each other better on here, better discussion would result. I now think that's an erroneous premise.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #243 on: April 24, 2012, 01:20:58 PM »
For 34 of the 42 years I've been alive, I've either been enrolled in or worked at private schools. At no time in those schools has the gap between rich and poor been so painfully obvious as it is right now. Interestingly, however, it isn't the very poor who are impacted most negatively. Instead, it is the middle-income family.

At least for the Boston-area private schools in the ISL, merit scholarships aren't allowed. All financial aid is need-based. With a boarding tuition of $50,000, it is very likely that a family with an income of $100,000 to $150,000 might qualify for 50% aid. That means they are still on the hook for $25,000. Given the high cost of living in Boston and the fact that there is no tax relief for private school tuition, not many families in that category can afford it.

Instead, it has become much more of an all or nothing approach. You are either full pay or full aid (i.e., the barbell effect). The kinds of kids who are traditionally the bread and butter of these schools ... middle class, smart kids who are three-sport athletes ... are getting squeezed out.

I have always considered myself very much a free market, small government sort of person. What once might have been called a Republican (at least fiscally ... I lean more to the left on social issues). However, it's hard to see much of a free market in effect these days. We are no longer willing to let big companies fail, which some might say is a good thing but it isn't really a free market ("Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell." - Frank Borman). And how we (the government) decide which companies get a bailout and which don't is a shady business.

Similarly, watching politicians hop back and forth from the major financial companies to federal appointments and back again, profiting  all the way, gets me wondering if those Occupier dudes don't have a point.

The playing field is tipped, the deck is stacked ... whatever cliche you want to use. And the person most hurt isn't, I would argue, at the very bottom, because the safety nets we've implemented are so generous and far-reaching. Instead, it's the folks one rung up from the bottom on society's ladder. It's the people who play by the rules and work hard and have been asked to take salary freezes for the last four or five years, which they accept gladly because to not do so might mean that their friend and colleague might get laid off amid downsizing. Meanwhile, the income at the top increases by 95% or whatever the most recent stat was in a series of statistics that change every day depending on who is reporting it.

There was a great article in the Chicago Tribune about the death of facts (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-talk-huppke-obit-facts-20120419,0,809470.story). The fact is that there are more super-wealthy and more people struggling in this country than I've ever seen. (I won't go back to the 1920s or the 1800s, because who the hell really knows what it was like then.)

The fact is that our national debt is astronomical. The fact is that social security and medicare, in their current configuration, are unsustainable. And it seems to me (and I would love to find out I'm wrong) that the only way forward is to increase taxes and decrease the spending of the federal government. The fact is that nearly half in the U.S. don't pay income taxes, and a significant chunk of those who do pay taxes simply can't afford to pay anything more. Those most capable of paying more are those who have most benefited in recent years and have seen their salaries explode beyond imagination. Is it unfair to increase their taxes and only their taxes? The answer is probably yes, but we have painted ourselves into a corner.

I think all of this goes well beyond class jealousy and who gets access to great golf courses. I am very happy with the salary I make. I have more than I need, have my three kids' college tuition saved away, and I can decide whether the $40k initiation fee and $10k annual dues at the nearest private club to me are worth it. I don't begrudge those for whom that kind of expense is a drop in the bucket, and I am ok with the fact that an expense like that is well beyond the reach of many. But I do think the gap between those who can pay and those who can't is growing at a scary rate (getting back to the original post in this thread).

In a democracy like ours, where we as a society generally praise those who are self-made and even sometimes praise inherited wealth (Kennedys are a good example), when it starts to look like the game is rigged, look out. The Occupy movement is probably just the beginning.

Dan,

Wonderful post!  As a fellow private school employee, I see the ever-widening gap you speak of and am very troubled by it as you are.  As a math teacher, it also seems that the idea of raising taxes on the wealthiest in our country is clearly a necessity - maybe not "fair" but, comparing the burden on the top 1% to that just after each World War...they should feel EXTRAORDINARILY LUCKY!  As a teacher, I too feel very lucky and yet, also know that by the hour, I make less than minimum wage and do feel bitter about that - that one who performs one of society's most important tasks is appreciated and compensated so little.  I also don't begrudge those who have more than me, who can afford membership at elite clubs.  I do find it ridiculous that the call for higher taxes on those who can afford it is so often termed "class warfare" when the greatest generation seemed to consider it patriotic - 91%!

Cheers

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #244 on: April 24, 2012, 01:21:50 PM »
... How do you personally feel about the war in Iraq and the necessity of our current 1.4 (?) trillion dollar defense budget and the folks we have stationed in 150 (?) countries besides our own?

Defense budget roughly = $650B

Most of the countries counted in the 150 have no more than a contingent of Marines present to guard the embassy. 150 is a number used to make a political point; it is misleading.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #245 on: April 24, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #246 on: April 24, 2012, 01:28:38 PM »
They do meet the members...every day on the course and around the property.  They can then formulate their own opinions or become more solidified in those preexisting beliefs.  If those preexisting beliefs are as negative as VKs, I would want them out.

Who wants someone working with you/for you who hates you and everything you believe in?  Would you keep that person employed for you?

Edit...strike "employed" and insert "engaged in service".  :D

JR,

You've made some ridiculous assumptions.  Let's just start with the word "hate".  Really?  I spent 10 years in the industry as a teaching professional and caddy, have the same general political outlook as Dan, and have never once thought "I hate this guy 'cause he's rich!" during one of my rounds at Pacific Dunes or during a lesson.  What a dumb-ass thing to assume about 30+ year-old caddies...or anyone for that matter.  Furthermore, you don't seem to believe in free speech or belief if you want all caddies with differing attitudes and beliefs as you fired?!  Dumb.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #247 on: April 24, 2012, 01:32:10 PM »
looks like 1-1.4 TT to me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States


I'm always pretty confident in litigation when the other side quote Wikipedia in evidence (believe it, it happens).
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #248 on: April 24, 2012, 01:34:48 PM »
The uglier parts of this thread have seemed to bear out what I think is a major double-edge to this method of discourse.  In reading some of the stern ad hominem unpleasantness in this thread and a number or others past, I can't help but wonder whether the same diction would be used if we were instead seated around a huge table in some pub somewhere or in the public squares of Athens (Greece).  I would like to think that we'd all, on both sides, be a bit more tactful in our addresses to one another.  Then again, without the ability to type things to, at and about each other on the Internet, we wouldn't be able to escape our neighbors!  :P

I began to write a post on this topic last night voicing my reaction to reading the first third of Vinnie's caddying memoirs but thought better of it because I realized I would not have felt like a nice, helpful person saying those words verbatim to his face.  Even though the vast majority of us have our true names attached to everything we post, the physical barriers embolden us to sometimes speak--or type, if you like--out-of-line.  I am reminded of this fact whenever a political candidate has said something rather incendiary about his or her opponent and then babbles and sidesteps the matter or quotation during a live debate.  In this way, I'd go so far as to conjecture that Man has become less intellectually authentic as written has come to publicly predominate over spoken communication.  I have no empirical evidence with which to back it up; just my own experience of often electing to text or email someone when I could call him or her.  I'm going to try to live this ideal by only typing in such a way that I'd be comfortable speaking the words I write in the future.

~ ~ ~

On another note, Mr. Solow's post #225 meditates briefly on whether or not off-topic threads ought to be allowed on this site.  I would say that the nature of the first part of Mr. Paul's interview is largely off-topic, but I was fascinated by it.  I've respected his and many others' almost always thoughtful discussion of golf course architecture on this site; I'm likewise curious as to their thoughts on other matters, but ideally in relative moderation against the main subject of inquiry for this site. And, since I'm a relative neophyte, especially as it comes to having played and studied many of the world's great golf courses (I hope my opportunities will increase as my age and income do--there's motivation!), off-topic posts sometimes give me a chance to engage a little more than I otherwise might.

Cheers.

--Tim

Senior Writer, GolfPass

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #249 on: April 24, 2012, 01:42:15 PM »
looks like 1-1.4 TT to me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States




Debt from previous years (in this case incurred by borrowing to cover Iraq and Afghanistan war costs) aren't a part of the DoD budget. The actual spending for military related activities is in the 600-700B range.