News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #150 on: April 23, 2012, 10:45:03 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)

That is really funny Mike.  Great post.

As my father used to tell me, you can say or do anything you want, but you have to live with the consequences.

Michael,
I was serious....have already done it...those types of punks offend me and I don't care to be politically correct in dealing with them.  Cheers

What a disgraceful post and attitude. You should be ashamed and apologetic, instead you double down with "punks".

Pathetic.

Thanks Steve....have a good day....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #151 on: April 23, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the guys in the shop at WF already read this site diligently. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #152 on: April 23, 2012, 10:48:58 AM »
Mike,

Please don't take offense at being called a snitch by the likes of me.  I could have called you a policeman.



John,
I consider it an honor to have you comment on one of my post....if I took offense at this site would I be posting on this particular thread....hell no...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #153 on: April 23, 2012, 10:51:14 AM »
 At least back in the 60s some folks got off their asses and joined the Peace Corps.


Peter,

You know that I enjoy your postings so this is not meant in anyway other than to be informative.

I do like hearing the voices of a worldwide audience, and the common link to golf gives it a grounding to some extent.

Yesterday on the ride back to NYC, I called my business partner who is Building Internet Classrooms in Afghanistan:

http://www.filmannexcorp.com/blog/bid/134693/Film-Annex-Builds-the-First-Internet-Classroom-in-Afghanistan

My role has been supportive (he is writing the checks personally), but this crazy thread made me think that I would like to expand my role with him.

He is a doer, not a talker.

Cheers.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #154 on: April 23, 2012, 10:54:07 AM »

Michael
This topic must not be deleted, be it right or wrong, it is the opinions of the Members and should stand.

I am not supporting anyone, but the right to voice ones opinion and before deleting post we must look very carefully at the whole subject matter.  

If Ran does not want the views of these people, then that’s down to him to remove them. The actually quality of a site is in letting stand that we most dislike, it shows strength in our position and our argument of fair play whether others adhere to it or not.

Delete and this site is weaker, for the inability to argue the issues out.

Melvyn
    
Melvyn,
I have to respectably disagree with you. I made the third post on the thread, stating the thread won´t last twenty four hours. After watching what has evolved I should have wrote, hopefully this will be deleted within twenty four hours. Unfortunately, what has evolved is much more than protecting free speech.  What V. Kemetz originally wrote had a lot of validity in several areas but lost much of the impact because of the sarcastic undertone and offensive nature, which he admits. His responses since the original post have been in a lesser non offensive tone and makes me wonder if the influence of alcohol was not a factor in the original post. The problem with such an undertone is the negative energy that it generates and how it snowballs and grows. We know have a poster who has chosen to get involved in his personal life. This only generates more hate and more negative energy being added to the non productive cooking pot. Hopefully, that negative energy will vaporize when it hits Wings Foot as it should because if it doesn´t, it only adds more validity to the original message posted by V. Kemetz (without the sarcasm and offensive undertone). Where does all this growing passionate hate and negative energy end? When will the administrators of the site learn that this is destructive and counter- productive to the fundamentals for which I believe the site was established?  Pull the plug now before this turns into full scale, WAR and somebody get physically hurt!

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2012, 10:56:12 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...



Mike Young,

You are a contemptible human being... it is one thing to impose your limited world view on people within the walls of GCA (e.g. Patrick Mucci) but to risk a man's livelihood-even when it amounts to as little as V. Kmetz claims on his 1040-shows you are weasel and coward of the first order.

I don't agree with GCA's policy of allowing some people to clearly post under screen names... but in V.Kmetz's case I hope that is the case.

Whatever you might think about his opinions, you have no evidence that it plays any role in the performance of his duties at Winged Foot. Especially since you're not even a member of the club. Winged Foot is perfectly equipped to judge VK on his merits with any assistance from the Roy Cohn of GCA.

If this thread has proved anything, it is that people like Tom Paul who were born into privilege are often aware those expensive shoes sometimes encase feet of clay-and that the wannabe's (An astoniching 30% of Americans think they are going to be part of the 1% at some point in their lives) are the true cancer infecting our politics and our society...

If Ran has any evidence that you indeed took the action you claim with respect to VK and Winged Foot, you should be banned from this site.

arb:
Anthony,
Thanks for the comments.  We all definitely have a right to comment as we see knowing that there are always consequences for our actions.  I must admit I enjoy this site mainly as an instigator and it seems to be working well here.  I am now even being called a snitch.  And if Ran needs to know my actions and who they were sent to he can contact me and I will be glad to give them to him.    But as for your post:
Most of your comments are assumptions.  You don't what clubs I belong to.  All of my post have my name on them and what I did was right out front.  I take full responsibility for them.  And I'm not sure my world view is limited.  the so called socially progressive coutries I work or have worked in all use the USA as their protector from the wolf and they are all much more classed than any place I have been in the USA.  In fact their biggest problem is the classes progress whether they are stupid or not. 
I also understand that I can fire an employee if I don't like his the way he smiles or for any other reason.  So can WF.  Do you think it's not right for Golf Channel to fire a guy because he calls TW a prick on his twitter?  Sure it is and I would expect it.  Not because I don't agree with the reporter ( because I do) but because I enjoy the free enterprise system.  
It all boils down to how we see the world.  
Cheers....

If you are a member of Winged Foot I have no doubt you would have used this as some kind of justification of your snitching... I've only played at the course a couple of times, but it's hard to believe the members I know would appreciate your actions one bit...

As far as indulging your passion for firing people, wannabe Mitt Romney, that all depends on the relative labor laws in each state. Many large businesses have held the 'jobs' gun to the head of various states legislatures to enact 'right to work' laws which are mostly used by companies to fire anyone they want without just cause. They don't always work that way simply because states like Massachusetts (which is a right to work state) have interpreted that to mean you can lay people off without notice, not use the law to conduct personal vendettas against your employees. (Having previously received a year's salary from a large biotech company in compensation for unfair dismissal, I might be better equipped to discuss this than you, Mr. "Job Creator').

The reason you are a contemptible human being is because your reaction to hearing opinions you don't agree with is to cause that person suffering... then attempt to justify it through some bullshit rambling that you're the arbiter of what is and isn't acceptable to a group of institutions you clearly have no role with.  How would you feel if some of the people you rely on for your income knew one of your defining character traits was to stick your nose into other peoples' business and screw them for no good reason?
Next!

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »
"The reason you are a contemptible human being"

Anthony - you are now being just like VK.  You don't even know Mike?  All you know is that he sent a statement in a public forum to someone at WF - I think that hardly qualifies you to make this statement.  Your statement is either the height of arrogance or ignorance - take your pick.  For all you know, he could have 5 foster kids that he rescued from bad situations and give countless time and money to charities.


« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 11:34:44 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #157 on: April 23, 2012, 11:32:56 AM »
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment. ;D ;D  That's all it is.

Mr. Butler,
I enjoy your post and find them quite amusing and assuming.

Keep receiving those one year compensation packages for unfair dismissal and I will keep firing whomever I wish.  ( I've really only fired two people in 25 years).  Hang in there....
Cheers.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #158 on: April 23, 2012, 11:45:14 AM »
"The reason you are a contemptible human being"

Anthony - you are now being just like VK.  You don't even know Mike?  All you know is that he sent a statement in a public forum to someone at WF - I think that hardly qualifies you to make this statement.  Your statement is either the height of arrogance or ignorance - take your pick.  For all you know, he could have 5 foster kids that he rescued from bad situations and give countless time and money to charities.




At least he spelled "contemptible" correctly!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #159 on: April 23, 2012, 11:56:28 AM »
People make their own beds.....I just arranged the meeting...


Here is hoping someone returns the favor, posthaste.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2012, 11:57:49 AM »
I think this thread should be renamed. 

My nomination:  The Caddyshack Archipelago
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #161 on: April 23, 2012, 12:29:27 PM »
Mike is not a policeman, he is a snitch. 

And nobody likes a snitch.

Though I did like your policework, John, when you investigated the guy or gal who borrowed The Confidential Guide via inter-library loan and never returned it.  That was awesome.  Whatever happened with that?

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #162 on: April 23, 2012, 12:37:57 PM »

Keep receiving those one year compensation packages for unfair dismissal...


Don't think I ever suggested this was a sustainable career strategy... But then again neither is being a dick. :)

Perhaps you were correct to fire the two people you dismissed... I've fired a few myself but never took any pleasure in it... In fact, it's a reflection on you as a boss that it comes down to that.

But you are missing the point. They're your employees. Does a difference of opinion on an internet discussion forum give you the right to decide the future employment of people who work at companies where you're not an executive, or an investor? Or a club where you're not a member?

The only legitimate reason I can see for involving yourself in those matters is when someone is doing something illegal or harmful to the organization in question or others. As an example: While I question Jeremy Shockey's timing on dropping a dime on the New Orleans Saints "bounty" program, people's safety and livelihoods were at stake.  
Next!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #163 on: April 23, 2012, 12:38:52 PM »
Mike is not a policeman, he is a snitch. 

And nobody likes a snitch.

Though I did like your policework, John, when you investigated the guy or gal who borrowed The Confidential Guide via inter-library loan and never returned it.  That was awesome.  Whatever happened with that?

The librarian told me to shoosh.  Their life was more harmed by searching for the book than the book missing.

After 6th grade most snitches remain in the shadows.  I admire that Mike boldly proclaimed his disgust and acted.  Snitch is perhaps a poor choice of words.

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #164 on: April 23, 2012, 12:40:09 PM »
Quote
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment.  That's all it is

Mike_Young,

You are either a hipocryte, or a sick person.

You are a hipocryte if you believe what you post that "You accept this site as entertainment. That's all it is".  Yet at the same time you admit to taking a posters thoughts off of the board and to his employer in an attempt to influence his private life. On the other hand, if you think that is entertainment,  you are a sick person.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #165 on: April 23, 2012, 12:43:54 PM »
Quote
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment.  That's all it is

Mike_Young,

You are either a hipocryte, or a sick person.

You are a hipocryte if you believe what you post that "You accept this site as entertainment. That's all it is".  Yet at the same time you admit to taking a posters thoughts off of the board and to his employer in an attempt to influence his private life. On the other hand, if you think that is entertainment,  you are a sick person.

Steve:

You are either poorly educated or are attempting to become the new Anthony Gray, with your spelling of "hypocrite".   ;D 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #166 on: April 23, 2012, 12:52:22 PM »
Terry.

LOL, it's worse than that. I actually looked it up and still got it wrong. I'm an idyot.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #167 on: April 23, 2012, 01:39:29 PM »
Quote
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment.  That's all it is

Mike_Young,

You are either a hipocryte, or a sick person.

You are a hipocryte if you believe what you post that "You accept this site as entertainment. That's all it is".  Yet at the same time you admit to taking a posters thoughts off of the board and to his employer in an attempt to influence his private life. On the other hand, if you think that is entertainment,  you are a sick person.

Steve,
Come on ....give me a break.  I just got used to being "contemptible" and now I'm a "hypocryte".  Actually what I am is a redneck.  I'm trying to learn some of the more sophisticated ways of the world like many of you on here and I just need help in doing so.  I have grown up my entire life in a small southern town wanting to break away and I thought all of you socially progressive types would be lending a hand to someone as ignunt as myself but all you guys do is slam me for my thoughts.  Over the years my town has become the most liberal town in the South ( even having the distinction of the only county that Dukakis carried in the election)  and so many of my neighbors have the same thought process as what I have been reading from some of you on here.  Of course most of them are much, much more intelligent than myself, or at least they have told me they are, and it seems that most fo them are here obtaining fee (or very close to free) educations from us while being citizens of other countries.  I am surprised how many people don't like the Amercian form of government yet they move here to bitch about it....
Keep the entertainment coming ...I am a sick person....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sam Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #168 on: April 23, 2012, 01:43:18 PM »
Quote
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment.  That's all it is

Mike_Young,

You are either a hipocryte, or a sick person.

You are a hipocryte if you believe what you post that "You accept this site as entertainment. That's all it is".  Yet at the same time you admit to taking a posters thoughts off of the board and to his employer in an attempt to influence his private life. On the other hand, if you think that is entertainment,  you are a sick person.

Steve,
Come on ....give me a break.  I just got used to being "contemptible" and now I'm a "hypocryte".  Actually what I am is a redneck.  I'm trying to learn some of the more sophisticated ways of the world like many of you on here and I just need help in doing so.  I have grown up my entire life in a small southern town wanting to break away and I thought all of you socially progressive types would be lending a hand to someone as ignunt as myself but all you guys do is slam me for my thoughts.  Over the years my town has become the most liberal town in the South ( even having the distinction of the only county that Dukakis carried in the election)  and so many of my neighbors have the same thought process as what I have been reading from some of you on here.  Of course most of them are much, much more intelligent than myself, or at least they have told me they are, and it seems that most fo them are here obtaining fee (or very close to free) educations from us while being citizens of other countries.  I am surprised how many people don't like the Amercian form of government yet they move here to bitch about it....
Keep the entertainment coming ...I am a sick person....

Damn rednecks, go shoot something.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #169 on: April 23, 2012, 01:52:35 PM »
Quote
Randy,
You have to accept this site as entertainment.  That's all it is

Mike_Young,

You are either a hipocryte, or a sick person.

You are a hipocryte if you believe what you post that "You accept this site as entertainment. That's all it is".  Yet at the same time you admit to taking a posters thoughts off of the board and to his employer in an attempt to influence his private life. On the other hand, if you think that is entertainment,  you are a sick person.

Steve,
Come on ....give me a break.  I just got used to being "contemptible" and now I'm a "hypocryte".  Actually what I am is a redneck.  I'm trying to learn some of the more sophisticated ways of the world like many of you on here and I just need help in doing so.  I have grown up my entire life in a small southern town wanting to break away and I thought all of you socially progressive types would be lending a hand to someone as ignunt as myself but all you guys do is slam me for my thoughts.  Over the years my town has become the most liberal town in the South ( even having the distinction of the only county that Dukakis carried in the election)  and so many of my neighbors have the same thought process as what I have been reading from some of you on here.  Of course most of them are much, much more intelligent than myself, or at least they have told me they are, and it seems that most fo them are here obtaining fee (or very close to free) educations from us while being citizens of other countries.  I am surprised how many people don't like the Amercian form of government yet they move here to bitch about it....
Keep the entertainment coming ...I am a sick person....

Actually I believe you are being slammed for your actions, not your thoughts. And rightfully so.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #170 on: April 23, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
All,

As it's clear my opinions are decidedly cast in an extrapolation of my general character by some (even some who agree with those opinions); it';s hard to say that I can offer new information that would be persuasive to the message originated in this thread, prompted by the information in the interview.

What I can say that is the as far as the negative reactions to my post(s), is that the very character of many of them highlights an aspect of a deeply held thesis of the class warfare sharpened in the last 25-30 years.

The wealthiest .05% have culturally bribed, inculcated, facilitated and honored the next wealthiest .95% to protect the glut of their wealth. It has been cast through entertainments, advertising, media stories, disposable consumerism, patriotism and so many labyrinth, complex methods (some of which may be the more serious subject addressed by Tom Paul and I in future engagements) that it can make your head spin.

These "Next.95%" are the Nottinghams, the Gisbournes, the helmeted dukes and coarse marauders who do Prince John's bidding.  If they are provided their mutton, wenches,  horse, helmet and hearth (in contemporary times, their ballgames, their internet, their HDTV and IPads) they will put out the eyes and tongues of other human beings with glee.  If they do not, they will have their own eyes put out--somehow this ethos has been re-cast as capitalism, the free-market and the foundation of the American dream.  Who controls that message and its byzantine products - not just liberals, not just conservatives, just the wealthiest .05%. In plantation times (and how much of today's wealth was retained and/or opportunized from the end of that ante-bellum culture) there was the Master, the Oveseer, the House N**** and the Field N***** . The next wealthiest .095%, the bourgeoise, come from the second and third categories. Our governmental and legal class comes from the first and second group 

The preceding was a metaphor; a stylistic analogy.  No humans were harmed in the making of it. 

One example won't do, of course it is facile in its solitariness in the face of a complex issue, but anyone who watched 60 minutes last night about the fall of Lehman Bros in 2008 would find the unanswered question worthy of answer.  How come there is this mountain of evidence that a fraud was perpetrated and not one prosecution tallied? How come Ernst and Young's top global accountant, who is on record as both REFUSING to sign off that the Repo 105 movements of $50 billion dollars as accurate accounting and said, in essence, "there's fraud here" on May 16, 2008...how come he --who occupied the same building as the SEC was not given immediate airing?  This wasn't some guy in the mail room discovering a smoking gun, this was Lehman's top GLOBAL accounting contractor from one of the dozen most prestigious global accounting companies.

While I wouldn't even cast a wide net that equates all financial/corporate/inherited wealth with criminality (the same percentage of felons exist in the general populace as do in board rooms and country clubs) the problem is when they go off the rails, everyone suffers, the world comes down. 

What penalty or sanction is great enough to justify what the act did, when they are in the possession of such wealth and therefore access to these levers.  The Death Penalty? That's if (as is not happening in the Lehman case,)we can get the .95% imbedded in the SEC, the legal community and government to even prosecute. It still doesn't get the money back and the lubricant back that all of society relies on.

The Next .95 percenters: the small-business owners, floor traders; $200K salesman, managers, real-estate lawyers, PR puffs and Advertisers, car dealers, and so forth...the .o5% has gotten them to believe they are like them...when the difference from them to the .05% (of whom TEP is speaking) are a hundred times that of their difference to the 99%.  The bourgeoisie never look up, they look down, teachers are bad, welfare collectors are bad, unions are bad, Bolsheviks all. 

Living Well is the best revenge, I'm told and so what do you do with Bernie Madoff, Richard Fuld, Michael Milken, Enron, BP, the Exxon Valdez and the next 5000, multi-billion dollar/multi thousands of miscreants, all men and enterprises that enabled the men to live a good life free of burden - put them in jail for a number of years?  Where are the American aristocrats handling this?  No where to be found.

It is a Biblical murderer who answers: "I'm not my brother's keeper"

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sam Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #171 on: April 23, 2012, 02:46:07 PM »
The most interesting thing about this thread is that people still watch 60 Minutes, who knew?

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #172 on: April 23, 2012, 02:51:44 PM »
What is worse, an oligarch or a redneck?

I have to admit, I like rednecks better.......... ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #173 on: April 23, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
I'm kicking myself for entering the fray once again, before I get to the period of this sentence.  But, as a long time contributor of GCA.com, I'm going to wade in, if only because I feel so conflicted by the regrettable statements being tossed at one another.  

It seems to me this thread and these outpourings of invective about folks social and political stations in life are just a microcosm snapshot of the growing trend in the USofA towards a 'Balkanization' and foretelling of deeper conflicts ahead.  The vitriol about VK's reaction to TEP's interview was about the VK's observations of class warfare and politics of envy.  While VK made some interesting points that 'could' be discussed regarding the historical and perennial motives and practices of the blue blood wealthy, it contained what I believed VK has tried to walk back, regrettable personal statements about TEP's "wasted life" (which was way out of bounds and completely unfounded, IMHO-and so I did previously state in my only other post)

But, equally regrettable and disturbing was Mike's reaction to state he called WF to drop a dime on VK's expressed views, as if there is some sort of danger in VKs views that could somehow or should be seen as a threat to WFs very foundation or our national security- even more absurd.  It was an act something of a "Tailgunner Joe sort of activity to ferret out so-called enemies of (state, class ideology, what?)  I can't help but observe that and do so with the greatest of regret to ascribe that personal view, given my otherwise great appreciation of MY's hospitality, and conviviality at past events.  He is a very charming individual, IMHO.  But, I wish he could have put that genie back in the bottle rather than 'double down' as another observed.

We have the good Judge weighing in on if it is free speech, others questioning the underlying points of debate on right-to-work, at-will employment vs basic rights to fair and just causejob security and labor activity (something near and dear to my heart).  

All that said, still not getting to the real underlying cause of what I have mentioned is a "Balkanization" of our society.  We are more fervently dividing into camps in this country, that have more and more extreme views and reactions.  The underlying issue is indeed class warfare, and the classes both in wealth and power are increasing in their distance of separation, leaving fewer people to stand their ground towards a middle road.  Heightened vitriol, personal attacks, attacks and scapegoating whole groups of people and their honestly held views (particularly if they choose to call attention to what they see as wealth distribution and government tax and incentive policies that are promoting more separation) and their exercise of rights previously conferred in previous times when the balance of economic power became skewed and there was extreme 'have' and 'have not' extreme distortion; all are leading to more skirmishes in microcosm like we have seen on this simple discussion of what should be golf course architecture and it's contributing socio/economic/historical factors.  

Frankly, I am perhaps hyper-sensitive of this "balkanization" process I'm trying to describe, given my State of WI is in near civil war over matters foisted upon us by an outside group that has temporarily taken control over too much of our governance (ALEC!) and similar divisive tactics are now in our everyday life.  We literally have brother against brother, and old friend against old friend, over a fierce underlying sense of greed and mistrust of each other's motives.   And, I'm seeing in microcosm the same sort of divisive mechanisms of social/political class warfare here on these pages, as are evident all around me in my locale.  Here on GCA.com, we thought we had something of a fellowship of diverse people that had a common interest.  It has fostered acquaintances and friendships, across political belief lines, and though we have had our dust-ups of political-economic arguments, we have gotten through it to some extent, usually by focusing on the enjoyment our rallying subject of GCA provides.

Sometimes I wish an alien extra-terrestrial force would come and threaten us all, and make us look for the good and strength in each other and what we could do for each other to survive, than seek what we can get out of each other, particularly with politics of division.  You'd think I was a young idealist of 18yrs old than an old fart in my dotage.  But, I'm sucked in to make these rambling comments, never the less.  ::)

So, what is it?  Are we going to continue this mental masturbation, unnecessary invective, or discuss issues that contribute to understanding the game and subject we come here to share?  That doesn't mean not discuss social/economic/historical perspectives at all.  Just leave the "life wasted" and drop a dime horse hockey out of it... please!  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #174 on: April 23, 2012, 03:05:04 PM »
I had a professor in grad school that used to say that “ideology works best when it is invisible.”  A landscape historian, for example, might conclude that the picturesque, almost Arcadian vision that American-style parkland golf courses exude can be traced back to the conventions of English estate grounds, which were often rooted in the exclusionary tactics of the British aristocracy by such legal actions as the Enclosure Acts of 18th and 19th centuries.  In other words, the untrained eye rarely makes the connection between the golf course and its lineage, (and often it doesn't even want to) and therefore does not see the inequalities inherent in the game.  But not seeing the connection does not mean that the connection does not exist.   

Let us not forget also, that some (though certainly not all) of golf’s strongholds are in nation-states directly impacted by British Imperialism.  Consider the United States, Australia, South Africa, among others.  In many ways, golf (and therefore its playing field) is a latent artifact of a destructive colonial project that had physical ramifications, to be sure, but perhaps more even relevant are a series of damaging mental consequences, concepts explored more generally in post-colonial studies by Edward Said and Frantz Fanon, among others. 
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes