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Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2012, 08:13:43 AM »
VK,
Let's try to get this back to the gist of your original post (which you have every right to write)....

How do you think golf course architecture would have been different without the culture you referenced?

I really hope you respond, because I think we may be onto a very interesting discussion.

I will take a shot.  Without the modern Augusta influence (the influence of color TV and Masters golf tournement) of manicured everyhing, ( which I think misses the point of true Augusta) does not the modern natural minimalist that design this site loves come into popular acclaim earlier? Does not a  design based on strategy, angles and pure golf rather than glitzy looks arise sooner? That is what begs to be implied. I don't know if this is truth or not. Opinions? Why or why not?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #126 on: April 23, 2012, 08:18:53 AM »

Mike

You offer me no reason to talk to you. I have no interest in talking to you.  I have no issues with you. You may have issues but then that's your problem not mine.

I hope you resolve those issues that seem to concern you and soon, but please rest assured you do not cause me any restful nights worrying.

I wish you well and no my phone number will not be forthcoming. If we ever meet and you are civil I would be pleased to buy you a drink and have a friendly chat

Melvyn


Melvyn,

Have you met anyone here in person or bought anyone here a drink?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2012, 08:23:09 AM »

Mike

No not yet, but yes have bought a drink in the shape of a bottle of single malt when I could not meet one individual.

Melvyn

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2012, 08:34:24 AM »
I have always realized that there is a certain amount of "circle jerk" in this website.  But this thread has completely convinced me that there is a basic problem going on and it's not just in golf.  But I'm not going there. 

I have gotten about 10 PM messages since posting a comment re Metz and WF. Most were saying they wanted to do the same.  Then I got these below:

"Your conduct in "reporting" the V Kmetz thread to WF was unconscionable.  Certainly the most offensive behaviour on GCA I have ever been aware of.  Who gave you the right to interfere in peoples' lives based on an internet discussion board.  I sincerely hope Ran does the right thing and bans you."

"Mr. Young,

I am of no consequence but am astonished, dismayed and unsettled by what you purport to have done in post #113.
Freedom of expression without fear of the direst of consequences is a fundamental tenet of a civilised society. What you have done by your own admission is reprehensible."


What???
Let me be clear for any of you that wish to PM me such crap.  Don't PM it.  Write it out front.  And for the record I believe in "profiling" people and I have profiled someone like Metz.  Employers need to know who is working for them and handle accordingly.  My actual name is on my post...I would wager someone like Metz is a not the real name or he would not have made the comments. 

Cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2012, 08:39:28 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2012, 08:47:08 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...


Mike

What makes you think WF doesn't who is working for them?  If you didn't have any intentions to see VM at least cautioned in some way, why forward the thread?  Do you think something positive for VM will come from such an action?  Your actions have me completely bewildered.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2012, 08:55:59 AM »
Mike Young,

You know perfectly well that the first PM you have quoted (that's another basic tenet of GCA broken, the publication of PMs) was from me.  You also know perfectly well that I have, in post 120, "written it out front".  That appears to be a deliberate attempt to mislead.

I understand from another board member that your conduct is not uncommon in the modern USA.  You claim to have had support, though choose not to quote these PMs.  If that is true it is genuinely sad that there should be support for such a fundamentally undemocratic act on a discussion board with a highly educated membership.  I stand by my post 120 and by my PM, which you have chosen to publish without consultation.

It is ironic that in your latest post you cannot even spell Mr Kmetz's name correctly.  Perhaps a little more thought and a little less reactionary nonsense might be advisable.  You have offerred no justification for choosing to become personally involved in Mr Kmetz's life.  Indeed, you reaction is in marked contrast to the supposed victim here, Tom Paul, who has made contact with Mr Kmetz to discuss this with him personally.  That approach is as admirable as your approach is despicable.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2012, 08:58:50 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...


Mike

What makes you think WF doesn't who is working for them?  If you didn't have any intentions to see VM at least cautioned in some way, why forward the thread?  Do you think something positive for VM will come from such an action?  Your actions have me completely bewildered.

Ciao

Sean,
People make their own beds.....I just arranged the meeting...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2012, 09:05:19 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...



Mike Young,

You are a contemptible human being... it is one thing to impose your limited world view on people within the walls of GCA (e.g. Patrick Mucci) but to risk a man's livelihood-even when it amounts to as little as V. Kmetz claims on his 1040-shows you are weasel and coward of the first order.

I don't agree with GCA's policy of allowing some people to clearly post under screen names... but in V.Kmetz's case I hope that is the case.

Whatever you might think about his opinions, you have no evidence that it plays any role in the performance of his duties at Winged Foot. Especially since you're not even a member of the club. Winged Foot is perfectly equipped to judge VK on his merits with any assistance from the Roy Cohn of GCA.

If this thread has proved anything, it is that people like Tom Paul who were born into privilege are often aware those expensive shoes sometimes encase feet of clay-and that the wannabe's (An astonishing 30% of Americans think they are going to be part of the 1% at some point in their lives) are the true cancer infecting our politics and our society...

If Ran has any evidence that you indeed took the action you claim with respect to VK and Winged Foot, you should be banned from this site.

arb:
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:16:15 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2012, 09:12:11 AM »
The wonderful thing about being a die-hard centrist is that one can enjoy polar views without conclucing which one is "right" and which one is "wrong."  Big time props to both Tom and V for well-written opinions.  I envy them both.  Thanks again Messrs. Paul and Kmetz.

Mike


 


« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 08:40:52 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2012, 09:19:35 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...


Mike

What makes you think WF doesn't who is working for them?  If you didn't have any intentions to see VM at least cautioned in some way, why forward the thread?  Do you think something positive for VM will come from such an action?  Your actions have me completely bewildered.

Ciao

Sean,
People make their own beds.....I just arranged the meeting...


Mike

What is it you wish to occur with your actions and why?  I am as baffled by your behaviour as I am with the VK's initial post.  Its as if we have the corner man (T Paul) copping a stool, happily smoking a cigarette while two blind men (you and VK) have voluntarily jumped into the ring to carry on while the boxers stand idly by in their corners - totally bizarre.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2012, 09:24:00 AM »
I think it is safe to say that this thread has officially jumped the shark - if the shark wasn't already in the dock when this ship set sail in the first place.

Being a proprietary web site, I realize that Ran can do as he sees fit, but I vote to remove the thread. 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #137 on: April 23, 2012, 09:26:10 AM »
What a load of crap. VK put his musings out there in the public domain. If his employer is rankled by what he said, it can decide whether he should be disciplined for what he said. Free speech is a right but that doesn't make it right for an employee to piss all over the class of men for whom he totes a bag. If he worked at my club, he'd get an earful for sounding like a puerile, impudent sophistress and I'd leave it as that. Being a solid fake intellectual, he probably would understand the reference. And he probably wouldn't care a whit, because the last characteristic he seems to have is being overly sensitive. Unlike some of the other right honourable gentlemen whose caterwauling over this kerfuffle has been comical at best.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #138 on: April 23, 2012, 09:35:37 AM »
@Brad  isaacs

  Brad, I think that yours is a good question.  My sense is that they type of golf that you reference was celebrated in the United States during the period in question.  Wasn't it the American Anglo aristocracy and merchant class that were responsible for the great courses of the Golden Age? For that matter, with the exception of Flynn weren't the American architects of the era generally from the upper reaches of society?

It strikes me that but for the Depression and the explosion of golf (and the RTJ influence) post war, the golden age style that is now back in vogue might not have been abandoned to the extent that it was.

As for the rest of the thread, one would hope that the group recognizes that it is our common enjoyment of golf and the grounds on which it is played that provides a reason for this site to exist. If Tom and V.KMetz are in the process of resolving things like gentlemen, perhaps we put the genie back in the bottle and return to what unites this group?

Tom always analogized GCA to a shootout at the OK Corral. Let's let the smoke clear.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »

Michael
This topic must not be deleted, be it right or wrong, it is the opinions of the Members and should stand.

I am not supporting anyone, but the right to voice ones opinion and before deleting post we must look very carefully at the whole subject matter.  

If Ran does not want the views of these people, then that’s down to him to remove them. The actually quality of a site is in letting stand that we most dislike, it shows strength in our position and our argument of fair play whether others adhere to it or not.

Delete and this site is weaker, for the inability to argue the issues out.

Melvyn
    

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #140 on: April 23, 2012, 09:52:30 AM »
Terry,

It seems to follow from your post that believe that an employer should be entitled to discipline an employee for expressing political opinions oustide of his place of work.  I believe that used to be the case in Soviet Russia and it probably still is in the PRC.  I had understood that it was not in the USA.  Even if it is the case (and I would sincerely hope that it is not) what right does Mike Young have to act as policeman?

I believe I recall that you are both keenly interested and involved in the democratic process.  I have to say that your post surprised me.  I assume that the "honourable gentlemen" reference was aimed at me, I'm pleased that my "caterwauling" has amused you.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #141 on: April 23, 2012, 10:01:22 AM »
Mark,

Of course I'm amused. I'm not sure exactly when verbally pissing on the men for whom they work became expressing one's political views but perhaps I missed something. VK's whining ramblings about the entitled are nothing more than an exalted form of class envy. If he doesn't like Carrying bags for club types, he can always become a hod carrier. To exalt this banter into a caddie's right to free speech which must be protected at all costs is hogwash. Drink it if you must, but this contretemps doesn't rise to the level of a pimple on the body of free speech law.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:05:45 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #142 on: April 23, 2012, 10:05:09 AM »
hod- a tray or trough that has a pole handle and that is borne on the shoulder for carrying loads (as of mortar or brick)

I knew I'd learn something eventually out of all this nonsense...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2012, 10:06:14 AM »
Mark,

Mike is not a policeman, he is a snitch.  I have been tattled on many times because of things I have said on this site. Once a Super attempted to get me thrown out of my club by presenting a printed hard copy of every comment I had made that he found offensive.  I had a simple defense, "Show me what I said that is not true.".  Let V. Kemtz do the same and it will all be fine.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2012, 10:07:32 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)


This is the most worrying thing I’ve ever seen on here.  A man expresses opinions you don’t like and you seek to have him sacked?  This has nothing to do with PC responses and everything to do with denial of free speech.  The theme of this thread is supposed to be about how society has changed and yet your appalling action is not decried.  Ask yourself what is it he’s saying that so frightens you into taking such an anti democratic action. This thread needs to die.

Churchill used the following phrase to sum up the liberty under which we enjoy life.
“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it? “

Why do you (and others) seek to subvert that?



I'm taking a break from GCA.

Tony,
I agree with Winston churchill 100%.   READ MY POST....did I seek to have him "sacked"?  No...BUT obviously you must have thought he would be sacked if WF knew this.   WHY???

Cheers...



Mike Young,

You are a contemptible human being... it is one thing to impose your limited world view on people within the walls of GCA (e.g. Patrick Mucci) but to risk a man's livelihood-even when it amounts to as little as V. Kmetz claims on his 1040-shows you are weasel and coward of the first order.

I don't agree with GCA's policy of allowing some people to clearly post under screen names... but in V.Kmetz's case I hope that is the case.

Whatever you might think about his opinions, you have no evidence that it plays any role in the performance of his duties at Winged Foot. Especially since you're not even a member of the club. Winged Foot is perfectly equipped to judge VK on his merits with any assistance from the Roy Cohn of GCA.

If this thread has proved anything, it is that people like Tom Paul who were born into privilege are often aware those expensive shoes sometimes encase feet of clay-and that the wannabe's (An astoniching 30% of Americans think they are going to be part of the 1% at some point in their lives) are the true cancer infecting our politics and our society...

If Ran has any evidence that you indeed took the action you claim with respect to VK and Winged Foot, you should be banned from this site.

arb:
Anthony,
Thanks for the comments.  We all definitely have a right to comment as we see knowing that there are always consequences for our actions.  I must admit I enjoy this site mainly as an instigator and it seems to be working well here.  I am now even being called a snitch.  And if Ran needs to know my actions and who they were sent to he can contact me and I will be glad to give them to him.    But as for your post:
Most of your comments are assumptions.  You don't what clubs I belong to.  All of my post have my name on them and what I did was right out front.  I take full responsibility for them.  And I'm not sure my world view is limited.  the so called socially progressive coutries I work or have worked in all use the USA as their protector from the wolf and they are all much more classed than any place I have been in the USA.  In fact their biggest problem is the classes progress whether they are stupid or not. 
I also understand that I can fire an employee if I don't like his the way he smiles or for any other reason.  So can WF.  Do you think it's not right for Golf Channel to fire a guy because he calls TW a prick on his twitter?  Sure it is and I would expect it.  Not because I don't agree with the reporter ( because I do) but because I enjoy the free enterprise system.  
It all boils down to how we see the world.  
Cheers....
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:20:02 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #145 on: April 23, 2012, 10:14:29 AM »
I thought caddies were only required to show up, shut up and keep up.  I assumed the "shut up" part was limited to the golf course.  I'll take a socialist who can read putts over a tea party member who can't every time. 

"We're all ignorant, just about different things."
- W. G. Hendren
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #146 on: April 23, 2012, 10:24:16 AM »
Blogs, Facebook, camera phones and the such have made caddies obsolete.  It's just not worth the return they provide to give up your privacy.

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #147 on: April 23, 2012, 10:28:52 AM »
I don't know how you respond to this type of thread.  But I did decide I should send it to a friend who is a teaching pro at Winged Foot and hope he could ask the head pro to read it and then introduce him to this guy.  I doubt VKMetz is his name.    It's the least I could do. ;)

That is really funny Mike.  Great post.

As my father used to tell me, you can say or do anything you want, but you have to live with the consequences.

Michael,
I was serious....have already done it...those types of punks offend me and I don't care to be politically correct in dealing with them.  Cheers

What a disgraceful post and attitude. You should be ashamed and apologetic, instead you double down with "punks".

Pathetic.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #148 on: April 23, 2012, 10:33:19 AM »
That this thread is up to six pages proves we all have too much time on our hands -- socialists and hawks alike, blue bloods and the children of immigrants. A function of a wide-spread luxury and ease unimagined even a hundred years ago, and of an internet age in which civic concerns and political action are manifested through late night rambles and a ready finger on the "send" button.  At least back in the 60s some folks got off their asses and joined the Peace Corps.

Peter

Then I looked on all the works of my hands and the labour I had exerted, and alas, all was vanity and striving and a chasing after the wind -- and there was nothing of worth to be found under the sun.



John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it even worth it?
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2012, 10:39:06 AM »
Mike,

Please don't take offense at being called a snitch by the likes of me.  I could have called you a policeman.