Is it even worth it?

[Jud_T]

I've known plenty of descendants of inherited wealth, some of which was accumulated back in the "good 'ole days" in a manner which would probably make VK have to be carried off the course in a straight jacket while foaming at the mouth.  Apparently these children are supposed to spend the rest of their days wandering the countryside in shepherd's clothing washing the feet of the untouchables to make amends for their forefathers.  Of course this isn't nearly the silliest thing I've ever heard from a caddie.  It doesn't hold a candle to the complex "Matrix" pyramid investment scheme that was generously offered to us via our caddie at Bandon, a guy that I'd met at Riviera and had specifically requested.  I won't soon live that one down...

[Mac Plumart]

VK...

You are in luck with regards to your wealth redistribution plan.  In 2013, estate tax rates are scheduled to jump to 55%...up from the current 35%.

Regarding your questions about Tom Paul's service to our country, he's been very open to all who've asked him.  Have you ever talked with Tom? 



Pat Mucci (and Adam Clayman)...I'm with you 100%!



VK...I was born into a working class mid-west family.  Did I have any control over that/Is that my fault?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sam

I have an idea, let's start a website where we talk about golf course architecture.  What’s the point is you are still going to ride carts? Your GCA will be different to my GCA and anyway let the man have his say, as he is a member of GCA.com or are you seeking to silence him because you do not agree with his views. In fact why bother posting or reading this topic is you have nothing constructive to add. Perhaps you should address your comment to Ran and Tom as why was the interview not more on GCA. But then it was Ran’s Interview and by reading it we may understand a little more about the world we live in – or is that too much info for you.

Agree or not let others have their say, I know from our past posts that we both agree upon that.

Melvyn

[Sam Morrow]

Sam

I have an idea, let's start a website where we talk about golf course architecture.  What’s the point is you are still going to ride carts? Your GCA will be different to my GCA and anyway let the man have his say, as he is a member of GCA.com or are you seeking to silence him because you do not agree with his views. In fact why bother posting or reading this topic is you have nothing constructive to add. Perhaps you should address your comment to Ran and Tom as why was the interview not more on GCA. But then it was Ran’s Interview and by reading it we may understand a little more about the world we live in – or is that too much info for you.

Agree or not let others have their say, I know from our past posts that we both agree upon that.

Melvyn

The old cart debate, if you played golf I'd invite you to see that I usually walk.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sam

I was trying to make a joke to cool the mood, I know you walk, well some of the time due to climate, right

Melvyn

[Sam Morrow]

Sam

I was trying to make a joke to cool the mood, I know you walk, well some of the time due to climate, right

Melvyn

The offer still stands.

[Michael George]

Melvyn - while I agree with people having the courage to post honest opinions, there is a great difference between VK disagreeing with the interview and saying that it is a "puff piece" that has little to do with golf course architecture or that there is a class eliteness re: golf and golf clubs in the US (both of which I think are valid opinions) and VK personally attacking Tom Paul.  

I have criticized some of your posts where you have taken personal attacks on others on this site, but I have never attacked you as a person - as that would be inappropriate as I don't know you.  

[BCrosby]

Wow. Where did all this come from?

Breaking news: There is an American aristocracy. It's been around for a couple of hundred years. It's hard to miss.

More breaking news: Like it or not, that same aristocracy was of pivotal importance in the development of golf architecture in the US.

Yet more breaking news: Tom Paul was born into that aristocracy. Oddly enough, he happens to know many of his cohorts, including many who were/are, to one degree or another, connected with architecture and/or great courses. I think that is worth hearing about. It's an aspect of the history of gca.

But to get that you do have to put up with Tom's sidebar stories about wild, rich, sexy debs doing outrageous things late into the night at fancy golf clubs on Long Island.

I, for one, was willing to endure those stories. 

Bob







 



 

[JMEvensky]

But to get that you do have to put up with Tom's sidebar stories about wild, rich, sexy debs doing outrageous things late into the night at fancy golf clubs on Long Island.

I, for one, was willing to endure those stories. 

Bob







 



 

Same here--It's a miserable job,but somebody's gotta do it.

[Michael George]

I am more interested in those stories than his thoughts on golf architecture

[Mac Plumart]

I was actually preparing an inquiry to the board on the first ten (chronologically speaking) hard copy books/essays/long articles on GCA

Trying to move on past the attacks on Mr. Paul.

The first ten chronologically speaking.  Hmmm...

Thomas' was 1927
Mackenzie 1920
Behr articles...I think the 20's.
John Low Concerning Golf 1903
Horace Hutchinson 1892


Maybe this will get the ball rolling.

[Terry Lavin]

VK:

This one came out of left field. Generally speaking, it's not all that profitable, for want of a better word, to toss such political hoo-hah around here. But at least it came from LEFT field for a change.  All it earned, of course, is scorn, derision and yet another opportunity for MHM to break out his Poor Poor Pitiful Me victim's statement. For that alone, you should ask that the thread be sent into the internet purgatory cloud. 

[Tom_Doak]

I was actually preparing an inquiry to the board on the first ten (chronologically speaking) hard copy books/essays/long articles on GCA

Trying to move on past the attacks on Mr. Paul.

The first ten chronologically speaking.  Hmmm...

Thomas' was 1927
Mackenzie 1920
Behr articles...I think the 20's.
John Low Concerning Golf 1903
Horace Hutchinson 1892


Maybe this will get the ball rolling.

The Colt and Alison book was in 1920 if not before.
Robert Hunter's The Links was 1926.
Wethered and Simpson's book was in 1929 ... probably not early enough to make the top ten.

What counts as an essay / long article? 
The Country Life "Great Hole Discussion" ?
The Lido contest which followed it a few years later, that MacKenzie won? 
C.B. Macdonald's thoughts on The Ideal Golf Course, published in 1903 or '04?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Terry

For a man associated with the law you show little regards for what it is there to protect.  Just for the record I am not poor, certainly when it comes to my life, St Andrews and Golf.

I have seen The Land Fit For Purpose – so I am far from poor. But of course you are a material man open to the opportunity of making money, which in itself show the shallowness of your cause.

The most valuable thing on this site is the opportunity of expressing ones views, yet you would belittle any view you do not consider worthy – tell me just what is your job and what is your duty or do you look the other way at times compromising the original principles you once believe in – the right to free speech.

[Chris Buie]

Since the subject was raised in the interview V has a right to post his views on the matter. (Let's not single out Mr. Paul though.)
It's almost impossible to have a clear headed discussion about the sensitive social and political topics. That is not a good thing because lets say there is room for improvement - and the state of these issues matter enormously.
I would be delighted to see a level headed, exceptionally bright person give an accurate assessment and concise summarization of an important topic - and say these are the various credible options for trying to bring the particular issue to the best level we can possibly take it to at this point. Some issues are serious and some not so serious. The former deserves the very best effort from the very brightest people. Actually, I would say that anything less than that is a sort of dereliction - and unfortunate commentary upon their own character.
Almost all the discourse I see on the big sensitive topics is not helpful in improving matters. I would suggest that the time and energy spent telling me what a supposedly sordid fellow the one who has a different view from your own could be spent in better ways. I'm guessing its possible that may not entirely be the case this election year.
People are interesting creatures. We have noble aspects and some that are not so noble. When it comes to the big issues I don't think it would be a bad thing to try to come at the issues from our best selves.
Well, those are my thoughts. I wouldn't pretend my perspective is entirely correct. It is the best input I can give you on this thread for the moment though.

[DMoriarty]

What counts as an essay / long article?  
The Country Life "Great Hole Discussion" ?
The Lido contest which followed it a few years later, that MacKenzie won?  
C.B. Macdonald's thoughts on The Ideal Golf Course, published in 1903 or '04?

Tom,
 I think the great hole discussion was in Golf or Golf Illustrated (British version) and around 1901, whereas the Ideal Hole ("Lido") contest (Country Life) wasn't until around 1914.  

As to the question above in red, I wonder the same thing.  Not sure if any of these would qualify but here are just a few more . . .
 
- CBM's  1906 article in Outing on the Ideal Golf Links might make the list.  
- HJW's  1909 article in Scribner's "Ideal Golf Links" is a terrific statement on golf design, but echoes some of Low's 1903 work.  
- Fowler wrote an article on the Ideal Golf Course in 1913.
- CBM and HJW authored their short lived (four holes)"Representative American Golf Holes" series in Golf Illustrated in 1914.  Does that count?
-  The USGA Green Section ran a similar series on representative golf holes in the early 1920's.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

My bad.  All those articles have kind of blurred together in my head over time; it's been a long time since I read any of them, other than the three articles regarding the Country Life contest with the winning entry and the runners-up.

[Kyle Harris]

Those of us who have had the pleasure of Tom's company know that, without fail, he knows his faults better than anyone ever could.

My lasting image of Tom will be at the bar of The Nittany Lion Inn on Penn State's University Park Campus. Tom was kind enough to accompany me to one of my lectures on the Penn State Golf Courses' history which I present to the PSU Professional Golf Management Student Society. After the talk, Tom was in the nice hotel bar having a house red and chatting with the college-student bartender. The bartender was doing most of the talking about his goals, dreams and life and Tom was absolutely enthralled with the young man's story.

Tom is, first and foremost, a people person. Any people. 

[BCrosby]

There are a fair number of earlier articles. I don't have my files handy, but from memory:

HGH was writing about gca as early as 1891. His "Procrustean Axioms" for hole lengths was notable at the time. He continued to write on gca for the British GI and CL over the following years. See Scott MacPherson's excellent book on the evolution of SA for some of them. He did a series on bunkers circa 1900 that is interesting.

Starting about 1900 Low was also writing on gca for different periodicals, including the British GI, Athletic News, Pall Mall Gazette and for Nisbet's Golf Yearbook, which he edited. Harold Hilton was writing that early as well.

Emmet and Travis each wrote longish articles about 1900 and over the following years. Travis' 1906 piece (I forget the name) is terrific on new ideas about gca, some of which sounds to me like he was channeling Low.

Then there are books by Taylor, Park, Garden Smith and others that have chapters on gca circa 1900.

In short, the question is a messy one. I'm not sure there is an easy way to nail down 'firsts'.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

However, it wasn't until your quote above that I stopped to think why the evil deeds of 9/11 aroused so much vengeance on the part of our leaders.  It's because 9/11 wasn't just an attack on America.  It was a direct attack on THEM, on money and power and privilege.  And they are apparently quite happy to use an unlimited amount of Americans' resources [and lives, if necessary] to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Tom, are you telling us that your response would have been to do nothing ?

To just sit back and wait for the next wave of attacks ?

Obviously, you didn't have to drive through the Lincoln or Holland Tunnels or cross the George Washington Bridge everyday.

EVERYONE who did, was apprehensive from the moment they entered those tunnels/bridges until the moment they got out, for YEARS.

It wasn't an attack on "them" it was an attack on America, and if our leaders had done nothing, they would have been impeached, and removed from office.

With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, what would you have done ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am more interested in those stories than his thoughts on golf architecture

Michael,

That's because he had no "original" thoughts on architecture, everything he knows, he learned from me.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am more interested in those stories than his thoughts on golf architecture

Michael,

That's because he had no "original" thoughts on architecture, everything he knows, he learned from me.

Now was that when you were under the influence of the knife or something stronger? 

Melvyn

[Michael George]

I am more interested in those stories than his thoughts on golf architecture

Michael,

That's because he had no "original" thoughts on architecture, everything he knows, he learned from me.

Pat - that is funny.  He must be ungrateful as I did not even see an acknowledgment in The Nature Faker for all that you have taught him over the years  

[Joe Stansell]

With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, what would you have done ?[/b][/size][/color]

Okay, Pat. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? With 20-20 hindsight (and for some of us, a bit of foresight), I think its pretty easy to say now that "we" took our eye off the ball.

[Melvyn Morrow]

With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, what would you have done ?[/b][/size][/color]

Okay, Pat. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? With 20-20 hindsight (and for some of us, a bit of foresight), I think its pretty easy to say now that "we" took our eye off the ball.

And now we are in the water, deep on one of those island Greens. Wonder if a Tom Doak offer of a design will finally bring all parties to the table in the same warm, kind and friendly fellowship we find here on GCA.com - Oh well perhaps not, see Tom what happens if the site is not fit for purpose