Is it even worth it?

[Jud_T]

Paul,

Of course the money goes somewhere.  It's a question of whether it's the most productive use of that capital.  You be the judge:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/government-waste-20-of-the-craziest-things-that-the-u-s-government-is-spending-money-on

[Brad Isaacs]

As I live in Vegas, blowing on it fighter jet just doesn't make sense to me. Oh just a minute, the Thunderbirds are based here, maybe it does make sense.

[Ben Sims]

The government is the least efficient use of capital, period...If you want to throw money away there are much more enjoyable ways to do it...

The money the goverment spends, whether directly, like the purchase of fighter aircraft, or new roads, or indirectly, such as paying someone's doctor to perform some procedure, or to someone's landlord as a rent subsidy, is never really "wasted."  It always ends up in someone's pocket.  

I think that "wasted" is a matter of perspective.  For the pacivist, any military spending is a waste.  For the machinists, enginers, designers, managers, salesmen and shareholders of Boeing or Martin Marietta, it is salaries and revenues and profits and dividends.  There is no waste.

An astute argument.  I consider myself a moderate--especially for a member of the evil "military industrial complex."  But none of the quasi-intellectuals at the college bar nights in Davis, Ca could ever explain to me where all those highly skilled middle classers were going work if we cut military spending by 50% or some ridiculous number.  For those bellyaching over military spending in this country, you'll see that from a pure numbers perspective, it's coming down.  So is GDP, but that's another argument.

Here at Laughlin AFB, we graduated 380+ pilots in fiscal yr 2011.  We also trained and graduated 40+ international students from a dozen countries.  In August, we were given the explicit directive to remove 10% off the bottom line of our fiscal year 2012 requirements.  Nearly overnight we cut $10.4 million out of the nation's (I think the world's) largest military pilot training operation.  This year we will graduate 370+ pilots.  I would argue that a 10% cut in spending with only a 2.7% reduction in capability is pretty solid for the taxpayers.

I am only trying to point out that many of the sweeping generalizations made on this thread have been misleading.  The gov't and particularly the DoD are having to become leaner just as corporate America has been forced to do and just as middle class America has been forced to do.  Big gov't is an easy target for the economic woes of this country.  I'd say that societal expectations and people with 50K salaries driving 50K cars has been just as detrimental.  Go on trulia.com and real estate search in any gentrified neighborhood in Sacramento, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Portland, Bend, Seattle, San Jose or San Antonio.  It's not just the gov't or big corporate that has lived outside of their means.  This is an American problem, we all did this.

[Paul OConnor]

Every one of the people who got funded for whatever crazy shit they are doing, poetry writing in the zoos for instance, is going to take the money and spend it.  I'm sure they think it's a perfectly fine investment for taxpayers, who am I to judge?  As long as they don't put the money in a mattress, it's not a waste.

[JESII]

Paul,

Wouldn't it be better removed from the budget and let the original people that generated the money spend it themselves...how they see fit? Your view on this seems to suggest there's actually no value to money. How can you defend the value of the those grants?

[George Pazin]

Every one of the people who got funded for whatever crazy shit they are doing, poetry writing in the zoos for instance, is going to take the money and spend it.  I'm sure they think it's a perfectly fine investment for taxpayers, who am I to judge?  As long as they don't put the money in a mattress, it's not a waste.

Thanks for summing up the mountainous problem we all face so succinctly!

 

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks for summing up the mountainous problem we all face so succinctly!

 

Now, there is an emoticon well-used!

[Mike Sweeney]

Every one of the people who got funded for whatever crazy shit they are doing, poetry writing in the zoos for instance, is going to take the money and spend it.  I'm sure they think it's a perfectly fine investment for taxpayers, who am I to judge?  As long as they don't put the money in a mattress, it's not a waste.

Paul,

Let me give you a real world example of waste.

Today in order to keep my son qualified for his Medicaid waiver, I had to attend a mandatory two hour meeting on Teenage Sexuality Issues for Special Needs Children. Now when my wife and I die, my son's needs a Medicare waiver for a thousand different reasons, so we don't mess with it and I attend, prompt and on time.

It took me 45 minutes to get there, two hours in the meeting and then 30 minutes to get to my office.

The session was a complete waste of time and money for me or my son as it was way to general for my son's very specific needs on the Autism spectrum.

As an alternative, almost every Friday night my son attends Teen Night at www.snacknyc.com . It is exactly what he needs and his friends need. SNACK gets $0.00 from the government because the Founder knows that once she takes government money, she can't run the program that our kids need. Okay, okay, The Sweeney's can afford it but many families cannot.

Should the money be spent on programs that work or programs that don't work? Time and money are two precious commodities in life and they were both wasted today at the expense of SNACK.

[Jud_T]

But none of the quasi-intellectuals at the college bar nights in Davis, Ca could ever explain to me where all those highly skilled middle classers were going work if we cut military spending by 50% or some ridiculous number.  

Ben,

There going to do the same thing any of us are going to do when we lose our job.  Hustle to get one or create one for themselves.  It's Social Security, Medicare and Defense.  For better or worse something's gotta give on all fronts.  And is Defense spending REALLY down or is it yet another case of it's down versus previous growth projections or inflation, but not actually lower in nominal terms.  The government has more fun with numbers than any quant securitization geek on Wall Street IMO...

[Paul OConnor]

Mike,
I never claimed that government spending was perfectly effective, all I said is that "waste" is mostly perception and point of view.
Have you ever been a juror?  I was once.  I can't believe how much of my time I felt I "wasted" on a bullshit trial for which I received $17 bucks a day for four days, yet we continue to fund the court system, and one day maybe I'll be on the other side and feel like it was anything but a "waste."  Perception, point of view.
 
Jim Sullivan
"Wouldn't it be better removed from the budget and let the original people that generated the money spend it themselves...how they see fit? Your view on this seems to suggest there's actually no value to money. How can you defend the value of the those grants?"

We are the government, we decided, we elected congress.  Collectively we ARE spending our own money as we see fit.  Maybe I don't like my tax dollars funding military research, and only want to fund poets in the zoos, too fucking bad for me.  I don't get everything I want.  But I pay my taxes and don't whine all god damn day that I'm paying too much, or bitch that I don't like my taxes going to fund star wars or polar bear research.  It's called democracy, this is how it works.  Nobody gets everything they want and nothing they don't.  Compromise, used to be a word.

[Jud_T]

Paul,

It sounds as if you're perfectly willing to fork your entire paycheck over the government to do what they please with it since what goes around comes around. 

[Paul OConnor]

Paul,

It sounds as if you're perfectly willing to fork your entire paycheck over the government to do what they please with it since what goes around comes around. 

Does it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why should I pay additional dollars to pay for the reckless actions of others [/b][/size][/color]

You do have to pay for the reckless acts of others - that of free market abusers. 

At some level you are paying for the reckless loaning of money to folks who couldn't afford a home,

The government forced lending to people who couldn't repay the loans for their homes, NOT the banks.


for the reckless drilling of oil in the gulf,

There was NO reckless drillling in the gulf, the government forced drilling to deep water locations, mandating drilling a mile down in the ocean.


for the reckless declaration of war on other countries for dishonest reasons,

You must not have lost any friends on 9/11.
It would have been reckless NOT to have invaded Afghanistan.

for the reckless investments in mortgage backed securities of our banks,

Congress repealed Glass Stegal, a bill crafted after the Depression to avoid a repeat.
Barney Frank and Dodd voted to repeal that bill, which led to the debacle.

for the reckless practices of greedy doctors who are ordering unnecessary procedures on patients,

If they don't order those tests, they get sued for medical malpractice.

for the reckless way in which lawyers encourage lawsuits, etc. 

Ahhh, for once you're right. 
Tort reform has been fought against by Congress for decades because Congress is populated by lawyers.
We need more accountants in office.
By the way were you refereing to Lawsuits against physicians who didn't order medical tests  ?


These types of reckless behavior are done by people with money and therefore power and make up a MUCH bigger percentage of waste than ENTITLEMENTS for the middle or lower class. 

The problem with academia is that you live in a dream world, out of touch with reality.
The bipartisan projections on ENTITLEMENT programs forebode disaster for future generations.

And, they have all made the wealthy wealthier and the poor poorer.

Baloney.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
I never claimed that government spending was perfectly effective, all I said is that "waste" is mostly perception and point of view.
Have you ever been a juror?  I was once.  I can't believe how much of my time I felt I "wasted" on a bullshit trial for which I received $17 bucks a day for four days, yet we continue to fund the court system, and one day maybe I'll be on the other side and feel like it was anything but a "waste."  Perception, point of view.
 

Was it a criminal or civil trial? 

[Paul OConnor]

Mike,
Civil trial.  Lady suing Ford Motor Company because she got rear ended by an old man driving a Ford.  The court got going about 10:00, took a break for lunch at 11:45, resumed at 1:00, wrapped up at 3:30.  If I ran my business like these guys I'd be broke in a year. 

[Ben Sims]

But none of the quasi-intellectuals at the college bar nights in Davis, Ca could ever explain to me where all those highly skilled middle classers were going work if we cut military spending by 50% or some ridiculous number.  

Ben,

There going to do the same thing any of us are going to do when we lose our job.  Hustle to get one or create one for themselves.  It's Social Security, Medicare and Defense.  For better or worse something's gotta give on all fronts.  And is Defense spending REALLY down or is it yet another case of it's down versus previous growth projections or inflation, but not actually lower in nominal terms.  The government has more fun with numbers than any quant securitization geek on Wall Street IMO...

Jud,

It's very easy for us to sit in a tower here on the internet and talk about cutting a multi-billion dollar program.  It's quite another thing for congressmen or senators to actively pursue putting thousands of his constituents out of a job.  

To answer your second question, I don't know for sure.  But I do know that it is $10M less than it was a year ago.  I guess that's about 7 cents per taxpayer/yr.  You're welcome.  

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
Civil trial.  Lady suing Ford Motor Company because she got rear ended by an old man driving a Ford.  The court got going about 10:00, took a break for lunch at 11:45, resumed at 1:00, wrapped up at 3:30.  If I ran my business like these guys I'd be broke in a year. 

So why would you say this about

Every one of the people who got funded for whatever crazy shit they are doing, poetry writing in the zoos for instance, is going to take the money and spend it.  I'm sure they think it's a perfectly fine investment for taxpayers, who am I to judge?  As long as they don't put the money in a mattress, it's not a waste.

You are a taxpayer, and your opinion is: "If I ran my business like these guys I'd be broke in a year."

You would go broke, so why is the government different? You do realize that the government IS a business right?

[Paul OConnor]

"You do realize that the government IS a business right? "

Apparently a not-for-profit business. 

Mike, if someone gets funded for something from taxpayer funds, and then spends the money somewhere, it is not "wasted."

If the US Treasury were to sell $10 billion in bonds, and then take the cash from the Fed, put it into some dumpsters on the National Mall, and then light it on fire, that would be "wasting" the money.  Giving it to poets in zoos is not wasting it.  Actually the more I think about those poets in the zoos, the more I like that idea.  I think we should dramatically increase the Federal funding for this program.  For sure the poets are probably hungry as hell, being poets of course, and they will likely rush to the nearest supermarket and buy some vegetables and cheese and cheap wine.  The farmers and vineyards in California will benefit, and the Wisconsin cheese makers will have to make a little more.  See, everyone benefits, plus we will have all kinds of new poetry in the zoos.

[JESII]

I think poets write better when they're hungry...

[Mike Sweeney]

I think poets write better when they're hungry...

Same with comedians. Not sure if Paul is trying to be funny, but it appears he ate a big meal tonight. 

[Michael Whitaker]

I don't really want to enter this discussion, but I read an article that I would like Pay Mucci to honestly comment on as it relates to the discussion so far.

Here is the article: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/afl-cio-ceo-pay-14-percent-13-million/story?id=16170727#.T5n3jKvOWSo

I think this is the single biggest problem with American business.

[Phil McDade]

For sure the poets are probably hungry as hell, being poets of course, and they will likely rush to the nearest supermarket and buy some vegetables and cheese and cheap wine.  The farmers and vineyards in California will benefit, and the Wisconsin cheese makers will have to make a little more.  See, everyone benefits, plus we will have all kinds of new poetry in the zoos.

Recommendations.......

http://www.eatwisconsincheese.com/

(Friends on GCA don't let friends eat California cheese)

[Paul OConnor]

Here's more on the poets.   If we can spend $35 million or billion or whatever on an jet, we can spot the poets a million bucks.

The Language of Conservation (Poetry in the Zoos) is a Poets House program designed to deepen public awareness of environmental issues through poetry. The Language of Conservation features poetry installations in zoos, which are complemented by poetry, nature and conservation resources and programs at public libraries.

Working with five zoos and four public libraries in New Orleans, LA Milwaukee, WI, Little Rock, AR, Jacksonville, FL, and Chicago, IL Poets-in-Residence collaborate with wildlife biologists and exhibit designers to curate exhibitions in zoos that feature poems celebrating the natural world and the connection between species.

Language of Conservation Poets-in-Residence

The Poets-in-Residence are Mark Doty in New Orleans, LA Joseph Bruchac in Little Rock, AR, Alison Hawthorne Deming in Jacksonville, FL, Pattiann Rogers in Milwaukee, WI, and Project Leader Sandra Alcosser in Brookfield, IL (just outside of Chicago). The Chicago-based American Library Association is collaborating with Poets House to share the outcomes of the project–which is designed to be replicated–with libraries throughout the United States and beyond. The Language of Conservation is made possible with funding from the Institute for Museum and Library Services. This partnership between poetry and science began as a successful program developed by Poets House and the Wildlife Conservation Society that incorporated poetry into wildlife exhibits at the Central Park Zoo in New York City. Through the Central Park Zoo project, Wildlife Conservation Society researchers discovered that the use of poetry installations made zoo visitors dramatically more aware of the impact humans have on ecosystems.


Now stop all your whining and go read a little poetry.   

[Phil McDade]

 It's Social Security, Medicare and Defense.  For better or worse something's gotta give on all fronts.  

First sane comment on this thread, Jud. So why go all Proxmire on the thread and pick on poets?

[John Kirk]

Hi Mike Whitaker,

Very hard to enter this sensitive thread in any sensible fashion.  I think it's crazy to blame America's financial problems on one sector, be it government or private business.  Special consideration should be given to our legislative branch, who appear beholden to various moneyed interests to support their membership in Congress.  That relationship seems blatantly corrupt and damaging.

You need responsible citizens in all walks of life, and greed is one of the seven deadly sins.

Which takes me back to my original thought, that people are scared, and are hoarding money and resources.

Thanks guys.  Peace.