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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Course Development, Step 1
« on: April 20, 2012, 06:48:37 PM »
What is the process for actually finding the land upon which you will build a golf course?

For the purposes of this thread, I'm not thinking of making the course a business.  So land located close to a population base to gather members or get the rounds played numbers up are not a concern.

How does one go about locating land ideal for golf?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »
Easy: Find a failing course/club. Plenty available.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 06:56:13 PM »
Most people are going to have a (general) location in mind where they want to build their course, and will start searching locally from there.  A couple of years ago, we had a potential client come to us with no particular piece of ground in mind, and I was able to find a couple of good options for them just by looking around the town in question on Google Earth ... thanks to an aerial photography interpretation class I had at Cornell thirty years ago.  Sadly, that project never got built.

Mike Keiser enlisted several real estate agents to help him look for the property that became Bandon Dunes.  I assume Julian Robertson did the same for Cape Kidnappers.




Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »
Tom...

If you hire someone to find the land for you, what are aspects of the land that make it poor for golf?  I guess I'm looking for some less obvious things.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 07:12:16 PM »
Tom...

If you hire someone to find the land for you, what are aspects of the land that make it poor for golf?  I guess I'm looking for some less obvious things.

Soil.  Lack of water. 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 07:22:23 PM »
Bill...

Check me if I am error.

Soil.  Sandy Loam is ideal, clay based not so much.  Rocky is really bad.

Access to water.  What is ideal?  Would having a lake, river, or stream make requiring a man-made pond a non-issue?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 07:38:07 PM »
Bill...

Check me if I am error.

Soil.  Sandy Loam is ideal, clay based not so much.  Rocky is really bad.

Access to water.  What is ideal?  Would having a lake, river, or stream make requiring a man-made pond a non-issue?

What you want is underground water that you're allowed to use.  If you had a stream, you likely would only be able to take 5% of the flow of the stream for your own use.  And in many states, the water rights might not let you take any of it.

Unless you are in a perfect climate, water is the foremost requirement.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 07:58:08 PM »
Unless you are in a perfect climate

What are the best regions in the U.S. for golf climate?  Is there region with the perfect climate?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 08:44:07 PM »
You can spend lots of time here:

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm

The directions are worth figuring out.  Once you get it down, you highlight an area of interest, the tool calculates the boundaries of different soil types, and you can see what's underground at your dream site.  The soil types are sorted by slope, too, so you can tell where you can and cannot site golf.

The soil type descriptions are also helpful in describing appropriate uses.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 09:08:07 PM »


Mac

Move to Islay and build your 18 Hole Links course there. Machrie being just 5-8 miles away down the road.
Land fit for purpose and very much the game of golf.
Do not worry about numbers because 'If you build it he they will come' ;)

Melvyn

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »
Unless you are in a perfect climate

What are the best regions in the U.S. for golf climate?  Is there region with the perfect climate?

The Sand Hills is the perfect climate. For those who think you need or want 12 months of perfection please look to your friends who are married to a beautiful woman. Show me a the perfect woman and I will introduce you to a man tired of sleeping with her. Moderation is the key to appreciation.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 01:16:20 PM »
I think you both are correct.  Scotland and the Sand Hills are the two best areas I've seen.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 02:09:27 PM »
Mac,
So many things to consider here and the biggest considerations are normally directed to the business formula which you asked be tossed out the window. So are we to also assume  budget doesnīt matter? If so, then I really donīt understand where you going with this exercise.
 My opinion on soils, is that sandy loam is good but it will depend on the infiltration and perc rates of the sandy loam. Researchers say that the best or ideal growing medium is a well drained soil with above six inch infiltration and perc rates. (USGA Spec for putting greens) Most sandy loams classified soils will be less than that. Which makes me believe the ideal soil would be a sandy soil. But it doesnīt stop there, is the sand angular or round in nature or both, angular sand will compact more with time and initial infiltration and perc rates will drop with compaction from machinery and play. You also have to factor in the water source especially in relation to the quality of the water. Obviously a high salt content will be detrimental if not leathal. High Ph water sources seem to be associated with having a high carbonate content and lead to the formation of Calcium Carbonate in the soil and blocks the pore space in the soil thus decreasing the infiltration and perc rates.
In relation to climates it depends what flips your switch in relation to grasses. Do you prefer a tight Bermuda lie, taking a divot out of a bent fairway that could pass for a green, or are you seeking fast and firm, more often associated or favoring a fescue blend stand or bermuda in a warm season climate. Anyways, if itīs a cool season variety in relation to the climate you seek, I would take a more of a micro climate enviroment similar to San Diego over a climate in regards to Nebraska, which has more extremes on both ends of the temperature guage. Another factor to consider is that a dry climate would be favorable to a humid climate.
So that covers two important factors, there are several more but most would be associated with B&B. Budget and buisness plan!

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »
Mac
Do a google search for the land around Canadian, TX.
Sand (no need to import any material), water (southern reach of the ogalalla) and quite a bit of big oil money in the region. Being in Texas is means a common sense permiting process as well. May not be the best weather in the US, but sand, water, wind and reasonable development costs isn't a bad place to start.   One hour from the Amarillo airport, 2.5 hrs from ok city, and about 4 from Dallas.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 02:47:03 PM »
Mac
Do a google search for the land around Canadian, TX.
Sand (no need to import any material), water (southern reach of the ogalalla) and quite a bit of big oil money in the region. Being in Texas is means a common sense permiting process as well. May not be the best weather in the US, but sand, water, wind and reasonable development costs isn't a bad place to start.   One hour from the Amarillo airport, 2.5 hrs from ok city, and about 4 from Dallas.


Don:

If somebody wants to put up a little money, I know someone in Canadian who would donate the land to build a good golf course and let the financier take the bulk of the profits ... they just aren't in a position to take losses.  And they've got some really good land there, too ... dunes similar to Ballyneal. 

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 02:51:32 PM »
Mac...while your in Texas check out the area around Monahans (30 miles west of Odessa) There's a sand hills state park there already but I've gone off track and found great dune systems in the 20 - 30' ht range. Bring your wind game in season.

Good drainage, or the ability to drain your site is a major consideration....regardless of soil types.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 05:10:58 PM »
Thanks!  This is a good start for me.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 05:24:07 PM »
Mac, are you considering building a golf course, or is this hypothetical?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 05:34:25 PM »
Sound like Mac's got the fever for which there is no cure except more cow bell.   ;D

Mac, if you get the right piece of land, the very most you can loose is about 1.5 - 2 million for just the course, assuming that if the course fails, you can resell equipment and the land for something, from homesites, to returned to ag, to a sand mine, to a nudist camp. Once you build a big club house, you may need to convert that to a laughing academy or rehab.  Oh yeah, and you can loose your mind, which wasn't so noticeable when I caught the fever.  I now feel I was lucky and didn't get far enough to loose the money.  ;) 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2012, 05:40:24 PM »
I remember as a child, some 40 years ago, spending a fair amount of time with relatives in the area around Canadian, Texas -- Wheeler, Pampa, Shamrock, Borger. I "helped" (as much as a child can ever be helpful) my uncle dig water wells and erect windmills that dot the ranches around that area. Perhaps my most visible memory, though, was watching a few tornadoes dance across the horizon -- and taking shelter from the one that touched down only a 1/2 mile or so away from my grandparents' home in Wheeler.  

To be honest, I never thought I'd hear of that area being ideally suited for golf.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 05:55:30 PM »
hypothetical Scott.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Johnson

Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 09:33:38 PM »
Tom Doak...

"Don:

If somebody wants to put up a little money, I know someone in Canadian who would donate the land to build a good golf course and let the financier take the bulk of the profits ... they just aren't in a position to take losses.  And they've got some really good land there, too ... dunes similar to Ballyneal."


Mac, screw "hypothetical". There's the start of the "gca.com golf course".  ;)

Jim

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 09:35:21 PM »
hypothetical Scott.

Damn - I was already trying to get access  ;D

In all seriousness, I think the greatest opportunity in the US for a public golf course is along Lake Erie in Ohio.  First, the public options for golf in Ohio are not very good.  Second, you are centrally located to a number of large metropolitan areas like Cleveland, Akron, Toledo, Columbus, Detroit and possibly Buffalo if you go east of Cleveland.  Third, there are some beautiful bluffs and land prices are reasonable.  I do not know if there are any vacant sand mines that you could find, but this is a possibility.  At the least, you would not have to import the sand for hazards from very far.  It is my dream to do something along these lines, but don't see it happening anytime soon.  

« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 09:45:55 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »
Mac - to find land in metro-Philly, try to find plots owned by either the DuPont families or the Pew Trust.  Some of the most amazing ground for golf is in Chester County PA, and DuPont/Pew owns the best of it.

Fortunately, they've kept most as open space so we can all enjoy it.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development, Step 1
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2012, 10:20:43 PM »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke