News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
I posted a map of ANGC on my Compilation of Maps thread last night.  That map was actually part of a booklet written by Dr. Mac that Phil Young uncovered in a carboard box while trolling for Tillinghast materials in a back room at the PGA Museum/Probst Library.  Phil has graciously allowed me to share the entire booklet here.



























Congratulations and many thanks to Phil for his discovery!


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 03:20:22 PM »
Wow. Very interesting, especially the references to inspirational holes.  Nice find Phil and thanks very much for posting Phil and Ed. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 03:38:34 PM »
Very nice, thanks you!  8)
It's all about the golf!

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2012, 04:14:42 PM »
Very cool, Ed!

Interesting that hole 5 (14th in the descriptions) was 470 yards!

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2012, 06:48:20 PM »
Very cool, indeed.  Were others surprised at the references to template holes?  Today's 6th was a Redan?  The 4th an Eden?  Did MacKenIe generally build templates, or is this just a reference to the reader to explain the strategy in a concise manner?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 07:28:16 PM »
Very interesting...thanks for posting.
In reading Dr. McKenzie's description of the holes..and the templates that he had in mind, I have to wonder if someone dropped him off on each tee, if he could identify any of the holes or where he was.    The template hole use of the 17th at St. Andrews as the inspiration for what is now the 5th hole leaves one wondering what he was thinking....and there were others that were head scratchers also.
I love to read what the greats had in mind when they were conceiving golf holes.   Thanks for the insights.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2012, 11:12:14 PM »
I agree with those that found the hole descriptions and template inspirations particularly interesting.  The one that caught my eye was the connection between the 4th hole (current 13th) to the 17th hole at Cypress Point.  I don't see that at all.

The other thing that jumped out at me was that the tee for the old 7th hole (current 16th) was to the left of the 6th (current 15th) green.  Every other drawing that I have seen of the original 7th hole had the tee to the right of previous green.

I would again like to thank Phil Young for a fantastic find!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 07:36:45 AM »
With the travel maps, my guess is that the booklet was sent to prospective members during the initial membership drive.  The Making of the Masters discusses Roberts' asking MacKenzie for a map of the course to be used as a type of promotional material.  I wonder if this is it.

Roberts and Jones sent out over a 1000 invitation in the first days of the club, with very little success in attracting new members (less than 100).  Makes you wonder if all 1000+ received this booklet, or only those that expressed serious interest.

It is also of interest to note that the same hole descriptions appeared in a 1932 American Golfer article, which can be seen here:  http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag356p.pdf.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 10:46:04 AM »
Its also interesting that he refers to all of the par 5s as "three shot holes" except the original 4th, current 13th.

Does this mean he originally intended for 13 to be a par 4?

P.S.  We can also put to rest the controversy over the original 7th, (current 16th hole). He calls out it was a similar hole to the one at Stoke Poges in a thread from a few weeks ago.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 10:53:06 AM »
On the 2nd to last page, it says there are to be less than 30 bunkers on the course.  By my count using Google Maps, I come up with 44 bunkers in its current configuration.

P.S.  Would there be a case to restore the 19th hole?  I think that would be a cool feature.  Could you imagine the 1st extra hole in a playoff coming on that hole instead of playing 18 again?

P.P.S.  He also mentions that there will be "several" greens without greenside bunkers...but only 2 remain today.  The current 8th and 14.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 10:56:11 AM by Kalen Braley »

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 11:38:38 AM »
Hole 11 without the green side bunker would be up there for the best bunker less hole in the world

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 12:13:49 PM »
I agree with those that found the hole descriptions and template inspirations particularly interesting.  The one that caught my eye was the connection between the 4th hole (current 13th) to the 17th hole at Cypress Point.  I don't see that at all.

The other thing that jumped out at me was that the tee for the old 7th hole (current 16th) was to the left of the 6th (current 15th) green.  Every other drawing that I have seen of the original 7th hole had the tee to the right of previous green.

I would again like to thank Phil Young for a fantastic find!

I thought the 10th at Alwoodley was much more like the 13th at ANGC.  It's a sweeping hard dogleg left that plays downhill at about the same length.  All that's missing is the creek in front.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 01:39:18 PM »
I agree with those that found the hole descriptions and template inspirations particularly interesting.  The one that caught my eye was the connection between the 4th hole (current 13th) to the 17th hole at Cypress Point.  I don't see that at all.
. . .

As strange as is the first reference to CPC 17th, the second reference might be stranger still:    The hole will have some of the best golfing features of the Seventeenth Hole at Cypress Point, California, and the ideal hole depicted in C.B. Macdonald's book.

The second reference, the ideal hole CBM's book (Scotland's Gift, 1928) is presumably to MacKenzie's own winning hole design from Country Life's ideal hole competition (1914.)   CBM had incorporated the plan, (at least in part) into the the 18th hole at the Lido course.   In Scotland's Gift, AM referred to the hole as having launched his career in golf architecture.  Here is the plan in question:



On paper this hole hardly jumps out as being similar to ANGC's 13.  But perhaps AM was thinking that all three examples require the golfer to decide how much of the hazard to cut off, and by successfully challenging the hazard the golfer can shorten the hole and improve upon the angle to the green.  Granted the two inspirations provide more physically distinct alternatives and CPC's 13ths choices seem more subtle, but if we disregard the distance differences in the holes I think we can get the reference.  

Another possibility is that the reference is not to MacKenzie's ideal hole design, but is to rather to the second prize design (which I believe was Raynor's prize dogleg) also depicted in CBM's book.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 02:15:50 PM »
Phil, and Ed,

Marvellous stuff. I'd come across the route plan in one of the UK golf mags of the time but the real find is the text. Very well done and many thanks for sharing.

Niall

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 07:12:01 PM »
It certainly would have been fun to see Oosty and Bubba deciding the championship on the 100 yard 19th hole!

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 04:25:10 PM »
There has only been one copy of this booklet sold in all the golf auctions at PBA Galleries. That was in August last year, and it went for $6000. So nice find Phil :) if you found it in a garage sale instead of the PGA Museum it would have been an even better find ;)

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Description of "Bobby Jones" Golf Course by Dr. Alister Mackenzie
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 04:50:22 PM »
An interesting find and an interesting read. Nice one!

I've only played one round at Alwoodley (so far  ;) ) but I can't say the 4th hole there strikes me as like the 10th (1st as described above)? I know there have been changes since at Augusta, but I wonder where MacKenzie was coming from describing the hole in that way?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell