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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2012, 07:56:26 AM »
We just went through my office over the last month and cleaned out a lot of our old files of maps, saving only what really mattered.

For a handful of projects, I saved preliminary versions of the routings that were different from the final plan.  But, after seeing Alex's post, perhaps I should destroy all of those, so that eighty years from now people aren't second-guessing whether I made the right choice!

Geoff S's explanation of the MacKenzie plan for #16 is probably the correct one -- he wasn't sure yet whether he would build the back tee on #16.  However, I suspect his hesitation was more about whether it would work as a par-4, than as a par-3.  It would be a pretty long forced carry from the proposed par-4 tee just to get onto the fairway!

It's also strange to note that there isn't actually a tee drawn at the spot where the centerline for #16 starts.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2012, 09:46:56 AM »

It's also strange to note that there isn't actually a tee drawn at the spot where the centerline for #16 starts.


Yeah, I noticed that too. Would be a cool hole though. Is there room now for that tee? I can’t recall the available land that direction. Too distracted by the walk through the “enchanted forest” and the overall scenery of the two holes as you break onto the water.

Jim Nugent

Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2012, 09:49:14 AM »
How would 16 have worked as the par 4?  And also, would it have been possible/advisable/a terrible idea to have both? 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »
We just went through my office over the last month and cleaned out a lot of our old files of maps, saving only what really mattered.

For a handful of projects, I saved preliminary versions of the routings that were different from the final plan.  But, after seeing Alex's post, perhaps I should destroy all of those, so that eighty years from now people aren't second-guessing whether I made the right choice!

Geoff S's explanation of the MacKenzie plan for #16 is probably the correct one -- he wasn't sure yet whether he would build the back tee on #16.  However, I suspect his hesitation was more about whether it would work as a par-4, than as a par-3.  It would be a pretty long forced carry from the proposed par-4 tee just to get onto the fairway!

It's also strange to note that there isn't actually a tee drawn at the spot where the centerline for #16 starts.

Tom,  I wouldn't publicize your spring cleaning or you might find some of these guys digging through your garbage cans like rabid raccoons.   

For me the changes between the various plans and the final are interesting not so much for second guessing MacKenzie (although that is fun too) but rather for trying to figure out the genesis of the design, including what if any influence Raynor's ideas might have had over the final routing.  Arguably the changes noted by Alex indicate that whatever the original source of the routing, there were substantial changes made between this routing and the final one, and MacKenzie is the most likely source of these changes.    In other words, even if early maps plans were largely influenced by Raynor's ideas, the significant changes must have been AM's. 

(Alternately, I suppose one could argue that AM did his own original routing, the one shown on this early rendering, and then over time he had to scrap various aspects of his routing (like the par 3 sixth, for example) and move back in time to whatever Raynor had originally come up with, but this seems strikes me as counter-intuitive and unlikely.)

As for CPC 16 as a Par 4, here is approximation based on MacKenzie's February 1926 plan, displayed on the inside cover of Geoff's book.  The long carry (red line) is marked as 214 yards.  The shorter carry from the alternate tee (orange line) is marked as 143 yards, and the white line is 207 yards. 



So the hole in this version would have been something like a cape hole requiring a significant carry from the tee (the shortest carry to there present fairway on a line between the red and white line would have been about 170 yds.)  I assume that the area below the orange line would have been in play, so the golfer from the back tee (or the alternate tee) could have chosen to cut off much less.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2012, 02:29:43 PM »
The 2 shot hole looks like a pretty cool hole.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2012, 08:36:51 PM »
The 2 shot hole looks like a pretty cool hole.

I agree.  It would have been about 260 to the middle of the green from the approx.  location of the par four tee.   I wonder how many would still try to make the carry then?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2012, 08:39:34 PM »
David -

Wonderful overlay.

Not that I am complaining about the current 16th, but you could have had a par 3 with the same carry by building a green where the first leg of your red line ends. It might have been par 3 almost as attractive as the existing hole. That would have left room to extend the tee on the 17th back to the current 16th green.

A Cape would have also been an interesting option, though I'd guess Raynor/MacK would have reconfigured the green if it played as a par 4.

I had not appreciated the routing choices that spit of land presented.

Bob

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2012, 09:05:08 PM »
David:

Thanks for the aerial view.  I see now that they were fudging a bit with a centerline unreasonably far to the left, in order to call the potential par-4 "350 yards" when in fact it would have been close to drivable.  I always figured the tee was even further back along the coast near the 15th green [just out of your picture], in which case the forced carry off the tee would have been over 200 yards and too long.  The 170 you note is about as far as I can imagine anyone requiring in the 1920's.

Funny that everyone is talking excitedly about the potential of a Cape hole there, but what strikes me is that it would be pretty similar to #17 if the hole had been built this way ... instead of the one-of-a-kind hole it became.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2012, 01:53:20 AM »
Bob,  

Definitely it still would be a neat hole with the green where you suggest, but having witnessed an under par round wash away on the beach long and left, I have a great respect for the current green location. While I am usually an outspoken proponent of understated strategic choices, I do like the way that narrow neck forces the golfer's hand to either go directly at the green or play well left.  A wishy-washy bailout just left of the green is not allowed.

As for the 17th, moving the tee back and left could have lengthened the hole a bit, but they might have lost a bit of the drama of the angled drive over the cliffs.

Of course had they done something different I'd probably love that too.
______________________________________________

Tom,

That is true about the cape aspect, although the land is so amazing at in both instances they have have gotten away with two in a row.

I wonder if any of those involved ever considered reversing direction for this section?   The members could get creative and play to the 17th, but then instead of playing the 18th they could play back to he 16th green as the 18h, a la the Sheep Ranch.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2012, 07:22:24 AM »

I wonder if any of those involved ever considered reversing direction for this section?   The members could get creative and play to the 17th, but then instead of playing the 18th they could play back to he 16th green as the 18h, a la the Sheep Ranch.  

Many, many years ago, there was a magazine advertisement for some product that featured an aerial of the 17th hole at Cypress Point, but the photo was reversed, and it was cropped in a way that you didn't see the 16th tee.  So, it looked like the 16th green was played from down #17 fairway, as you describe, and that would have been a heck of a golf hole, too.  It took me a while to figure out where it was.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2012, 11:46:13 AM »

I wonder if any of those involved ever considered reversing direction for this section?   The members could get creative and play to the 17th, but then instead of playing the 18th they could play back to he 16th green as the 18h, a la the Sheep Ranch.  

Many, many years ago, there was a magazine advertisement for some product that featured an aerial of the 17th hole at Cypress Point, but the photo was reversed, and it was cropped in a way that you didn't see the 16th tee.  So, it looked like the 16th green was played from down #17 fairway, as you describe, and that would have been a heck of a golf hole, too.  It took me a while to figure out where it was.

Tom,

When Standing on 17 green, I felt like playing back down 17 fairway to 16 green would be interesting as well.

If the course was empty, you could just play them back and forth in a continual loop of glory!!   ;D

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2012, 02:01:19 PM »

Here is a view of what the approach shot would be, either play 16 as a par-4 or a reverse from the 17th green.

Perhaps this shot has the beauty but it has relatively little challenge, 16 green is a large target.


"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2012, 05:09:24 PM »
Mike,

As a mid to high capper, it would provide plenty of challenge to someone like me with the water left and right and bunkers long and short.  While its a big green, there isn't much room to miss!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2012, 06:02:47 PM »
Mike,  I'm not suggesting it would make a better hole, especially with the existing 16th green.  I was just wondering if any thought was ever given to routing around this section in the opposite direction.   

As for that pic, I think I've had that shot but from the 16th green.   It'd take a huge drive to get to that point from the 18th tee, wouldn't it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cypress Point - The routing - Raynor, Hollins and MacKenzie
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2012, 12:51:29 PM »
Mike,

As a mid to high capper, it would provide plenty of challenge to someone like me with the water left and right and bunkers long and short.  While its a big green, there isn't much room to miss!


Kalen -

"Relatively easy" - - so for a mid - high, perhaps.  The green is 33 yards wide, it is 45 yards from seawall to seawall ... with a 100 yard approach shot ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."