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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good sublety vs. bad subtlety?
« on: December 04, 2001, 05:57:51 AM »
I noted in one of Mike Cirba's posts in the Best New... thread that he stated Fazio's courses, if played over & over, will show you things you may have missed the first time 'round(paraphrasing here).

Doesn't this hold true for most courses? The local muni that receives most of my business has many subtleties that most would miss in one trip around, but I suspect virtually all courses offer this. Are their any courses out there that this does not hold true for, if you play them enough?

Put another way -

Does familiarity ever breed contempt in a golf course?

Even The Good Doctor stated many rank their home course as superior. Aside from remembering all your great shots there, could this be a main reason why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good sublety vs. bad subtlety?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2001, 06:03:23 AM »
P.S. Please do not misconstrue this as Fazio bashing. I've only played two - the World Woods courses. Thought RO was pretty but not especially memorable or entertaining, but loved PB - but both were early in my short golf career & I really didn't even know what I was doing.

The passion with which Tim Weiman defends Sand Ridge certainly implies to me that Fazio can build a course that remains entertaining & thought provoking to the member.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Good sublety vs. bad subtlety?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2001, 06:09:36 AM »
George,

You have me mistaken with someone else!  ;D

I think the thread might have been mine, but someone else made that comment (Hidden_Gem, I believe).  

Oh that it were so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Good sublety vs. bad subtlety?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2001, 03:24:34 PM »
This is a very intriguing thought which seems to have been buried by its unfortunate use of the "F" word in the original post and the non-to-be-unexpected mini-bashes which followed.

I agree with George that every hole on every course has subtleties.  I also think that we often mistake complexity for subtlety and over-value the former.

Somehow, green "complexes" sounds so much more important and interesting than green "simples" or green "subtles," and yet I could argue that the latter are what we really should be looking for when we try to identify and study greatness in golf course design.

I also think that this thought can be carried through back from the green through the fairways and their hazards to the teeing area.  Less is more.  The obvious is least challenging and the least interesting.  Dealing with the seemingly obvious that proves to be not so is the hallmark of the expert and one of the great joys of the game.

I am intrigued by Bill Coore and his concept of "poofs"--subtle undulations or even changes in texture which affect the bounce and roll of the ball almost infintessimally.  And yet, as we all well know, even seemingly infintessimal changes in direction and speed can have that most telling of impacts on ones game of golf--the extra stroke.

One of my favorite spots in golf on one spot on one green that I know well.  The green sits in a setting of tremendous natural beauty and contains two levels of subtlety.  While appearing perfectly flat, there is in fact just enough slope and grain to insure than all shots will roll distinctly from left to right.  You can in fact putt off the green if you are not careful.  This subtlety, however, is usually mastered after a few years of playing the course and becomes second nature.  It is just about then (or even a few years later) that you find yourself on that green with the pin in a certain mid left location, and after you confidently strike your short putt inside the "high" edge of the cup suddenly you see it breaking "uphill" away from the hole.  If you lie down flat on the green and breathe slowly and the light is just right, you can just see that little hollow in which the pin has been set.

When that first happened to me, I knew that I would have many happy days on that green and that course, for as long as I was able to play the game, and I am confident that similar subtleties exist on every course we know.  We just don't always know where and how to look for them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good sublety vs. bad subtlety?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2001, 06:57:36 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Rich.

I think the point I was trying to make is how do you define when sublety is good, as opposed to the golfer simply seeing something that may or may not be there.

I'm still eagerly awaiting the long promised photos from Pat Mucci explaining why he & Tom Paul could spend all day on NGLA #1. I gathered from all the posts that this green is certainly not at all subtle, yet I wonder what makes this so special - could not many greens fall into this category?

I don't doubt that special subtleties exist - I simply don't have the experience to differentiate.

P.S. I should have known better than to use the "F" word - the new features of the site should substitute for certain architects rather than certain words. ;)

P.P.S. After reading A Season in Dornoch, I'm even more envious of you than before, Rich.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04