[rjsimper]

Chris,
Thanks for posting that old scorecard.

Tangentally I think it's interesting that the current first hole is actually shorter than the one listed there. The "short" tee of 396 is, I believe, the current resort back tee.

The 5th is a great hole with such an exacting approach shot demand. For some reason I have a very tough time hitting this fairway. I think it's because my eyes tell me that the hole calls for a draw when in fact no such thing is necessary at all. In actuality, a fade might even be better in firm conditions to hold the canted fairway.

This is one example where the scrub/waste areas make the hole either much easier or much more difficult. Easier because a ball just missing the fairway will very likely have a good lie that you can get a fairway wood or hybrid on (versus the bermuda rough that would grab) but harder in that a shot slightly more severely missed will now roll much farther and end up in the pine trees down the hill between 4 and 5 fairways.

If I can make it through 5 and 6 at +1, I feel like I have accomplished something.

[Jonathan Stewart]

Love the topic and the old pics, mostly because it is a course I have actually been lucky enough to play.

Just a heads up if you want to look at an aerial with the course post restoration and that is not so grainy try bing maps. This link should take you straight to it: http://binged.it/HF5QMN

[Mark Saltzman]

Love the topic and the old pics, mostly because it is a course I have actually been lucky enough to play.

Just a heads up if you want to look at an aerial with the course post restoration and that is not so grainy try bing maps. This link should take you straight to it: http://binged.it/HF5QMN

Jonathan, that's great!

First 5 holes have been updated with before and after aerials.

[Mike Hendren]

Wonderful thread with stunning photographs.

Question:  Without the rough will the course be a bomber's paradise during the U. S. Open?

[Chris Buie]

Nice eye Ryan. The first hole was shortened...so they could put in the members club...
There are plans for a more traditional version that blends better with the classical part.

With respect to the "turtleback" nature of the greens, they were that way in the early 60's, so I wonder when the transition occurred and if there was a consulting architect, and who he was ?

And, if the transition occurred in stages rather than at one time.

Pat, as Mac noted earlier Dunlop White did the definitive analysis of the de-evolution of the greens.
 
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf

Question:  Without the rough will the course be a bomber's paradise during the U. S. Open?

Not exactly. They will have to contend with the random element of wire grass. It will be interesting to see how they react when their ball bounces around and ends up tangled in those areas. 

[Jonathan Stewart]

In the new aerials if you look close you can see where they put in the center line irrigation. The idea behind it (besides saving water) is to only water the fairways and avoid hitting the native areas. The edges of the fairway will be browner, harder and faster than the center that get the majority of the water.

It will allow a well-placed tee shot to stay in the fairway and one that is off line, hooking too much, or slicing too much to hit the harder faster surface and run into the native area. This is trying to make precision off the tee as important as precision on the approach shots. Obviously this is a difficult task given the green complexes.

I cannot remember the number of sprinkler heads that were removed in the restoration (Chris would know) but the number was pretty staggering.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jonathan, I think it went from 1100 down to 400.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 6: Par 3, 204 Yards

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:




Probably a hole that few think of as a standout hole, but the 6th is one of the most difficult holes on the golf course.  While it is a long hole, it seems innocuous from the tee, but a deep collection area short of the green and a deeper collection area over the green make up-and-downs very difficult. 

Tee View:






From 50 Yards short of green: Note how everything funnels toward the low-point/collection area.




From just over back edge:




From 7th Tee: Note collection area over green.




Green.  Much like the 5th green, anything near the edge of the green has no hope of staying on.  Effectively a very small putting surface (and a very small target to hit from 200 yards+).

[Chris Buie]

From the Tufts Archives

[JLahrman]

5 is about as tough of a green to hit as you'll ever find.

It doesn't get that much easier at 6.

[Ronald Montesano]

These photos and comments take me back to summer of 1982, when I played Numero Dos my only time. It was and still is a mesmerizing course.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 4, 402 Yards

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:





The series of bunkers on the right and a fairway that appears to fall-away and narrow to the left, creates a tremendous desire in the golfer to try and cut the corner.  It's very difficult to pick the correct line and the carry quickly gets much longer as the golfer takes a more aggressive line from the tee.

It is 240 yards to carry the first bunkers on the right, 275 yards to carry the next set, and for those very few that are able to carry everything (about 290 yards), the most important number may be that it is 320 yards through the fairway.

Tee View:




View from start of fairway:




Those not wanting the challenge the carry will do well to play as close to the scrub area as possible.  The view after an ideal lay-up tee shot:




And a couple more looks at the scrub area and the approach from the right side of the fairway from about 150 yards out:






Lots of width available for those able to carry the first set of fairway bunkers.  The view from about 120 yards out in the centre of the fairway:




And for those able to take it over everything (or for those who pitched out after finding the fairway bunkers), they will have a pitch from about 70 yards that looks like this:




The bunker in the forefront of this picture is a great use of visual deception.  From the left side of the fairway (the bail-out) side, this bunker looks like it is right in front of the green.  From the right-side it is clear that there is plenty of turf between bunker and green.





Looking at the green from back-left, it is clear that this green has more internal contouring than many at P2.  A ridge runs across the green 1/3 the way back.






Green from left:




Green from next hole shows a lovely tie-in to the 8th tee:

[Mac Plumart]

Does anyone think there is a weak hole on #2?

I'm looking at each of these 7 and reliving playing them and it re-occurred to me how much I enjoyed playing the course.  The holes fit together within the routing like a hand and glove.  The challenges build on one another perfectly.  And everything seems to be perfect.

[Chris Buie]

1939

[Carl Nichols]

Awesome thread and pics--thanks. If someone has some ground-level shots from just before the C&C work that could be sprinkled in--so that you would have Chris's early shots, some mid-2000 shots, Mark's pics, and the aerials--this might be the best comparison thread ever.

[Mark Saltzman]

Here's one:

Hole 5 Pre-Resto:




Hole 5 Post-Resto:





Chris' Photo of Hole 5:

[Sean_A]

From the Tufts Archives

Wow!  It seems as though the details of this hole are very different to today.  Does anybody know why C&C didn't restore the older version? 

Ciao

[Chris Buie]

Sean, I think the reason they didn't go further is because their changes to the icon were really pushing the edge of the envelope. It looks radically different and radically changing a course that is already hosting the U.S. Open was really hard for average member to digest. A lot of them (probably the majority) were not keen on the modifications. There is not a shortage of taciturn members whose chief hobby in retirement is to complain. Somewhere in the course of their personal development many of them have come to the conclusion that to be charmless is an ok way to move through life. I think you could say the attitude was one of sharp skepticism. Out and out objection was probably held in check because the members had a sense that the people advocating the change were substantive people - and they did have respect for those opinions. The changes are very well received now but there was not too much enthusiasm by the majority at the beginning. All that makes the decision to go ahead with the changes by owner Dedman and president Padgett the more impressive - really impressive. Radically changing an icon? Not something you see every day.

And so, they went so far with the changes that to radically change the greens as well would have been pushing the boundaries just too far at the time. After the course receives raves in 2014 - and it will - then they will have a mandate to go further. Hopefully that means those fabulous original Ross greens will be put back.
That is not a definitive answer - just my take on the matter.
I think the people involved in the project deserve enormous credit. Tampering with an icon is very, very sensitive territory. Luckily it turned out brilliantly. I'd say we should be enormously thankful for what happened and not be too sharp with the criticism. The overall picture will take time - and a measure of patience.

Carl, here are some pre C/C shots:

[rjsimper]

Regarding "Is there a weak hole?" I think 16 is probably that. No real strategy to it...your normal ho-hum reachable but not risk-reward par 5, relatively speaking. (Unless it's the US Open and then it's a ball-buster par 4)

Regarding hole 7, I think this is one hole where the changes, while not as obvious as on 13 and 14, have made a tremendous improvement. The old 7 looked ripped straight out of Pinehurst #4 with it's cluster of pot bunkers and was one of the odd birds in the old layout. The new version is simply better. The dogleg is more defined and you are less subject to luck if you miss it right (i.e. you're in the scrub, versus getting a rough or bunker or lip lie)

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks Mark and Chris!

[Chris Buie]

I found a very old photo of the 7th. That hole was actually straight in the early days. It's the only real dogleg on the course now which is somewhat interesting.


If you are particularly interested in this course then I would suggest you check out the little essay Ross wrote about it in 1935. That is essentially when he got it where he envisioned it. There is a great photo of the 7th green on there as well. You can find it on the USGA website.
You have to sign up for this section of the site but it is free:
http://architecturearchive.usgamuseum.com/

[Chris Buie]

Ryan, I think we can say there is strategy to 16. To go for it in two you'd want to challenge the left side. That brings a serious fairway bunker into play for many players. Those that hit it super long but without a draw will find a nasty little nest of bunkers on fairway right. But Ross gives you a great deal of area short right if you don't want to be aggressive or don't hit it that long. So there are actual options on the tee shot - and you will see some pros in those penal right fairway bunkers - especially if the course is playing firm as intended. After that you'll want to think about where to lay up because laying up fairly close to the green brings what Morrissett says is the most penal bunker on the course into play. The smart place to lay up is between the center left bunker which is around 75 yards out and that intense right bunker closer to the green.
Ross wanted to challenge the best - but provide a course that almost everybody could enjoy. It's not an easy trick to do both at the same time. This hole is a good example of how that can be done.

[JLahrman]

I remember watching the finals of the US Amateur a few years back when it was held at Pinehurst. I was interested since I've played #2.

On the 7th hole, Danny Lee's opponent (forget who it was) knocked some kind of iron or hybrid down the middle of the fairway.

Danny Lee ripped a driver to the front fringe.

The opponent knocked his wedge to about a foot away for a gimme birdie.

Lee chipped in for eagle to win the hole.

I shook my head and changed the channel.

[rjsimper]

Ryan, I think we can say there is strategy to 16. To go for it in two you'd want to challenge the left side. That brings a serious fairway bunker into play for many players. Those that hit it super long but without a draw will find a nasty little nest of bunkers on fairway right. But Ross gives you a great deal of area short right if you don't want to be aggressive or don't hit it that long. So there are actual options on the tee shot - and you will see some pros in those penal right fairway bunkers - especially if the course is playing firm as intended. After that you'll want to think about where to lay up because laying up fairly close to the green brings what Morrissett says is the most penal bunker on the course into play. The smart place to lay up is between the center left bunker which is around 75 yards out and that intense right bunker closer to the green.
Ross wanted to challenge the best - but provide a course that almost everybody could enjoy. It's not an easy trick to do both at the same time. This hole is a good example of how that can be done.

I guess saying it's without strategy is a bit harsh. But I would probably say it's the most ordinary hole on a course of extraordinary.
...but we can talk about 16 when Mark gets there...

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 8: Par 5, 469 Yards

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:




A huge difference here between pre and post renovation.  Note the two fairway bunkers to the right, which previous were islands in a sea of rough to the right.  Now these same bunkers are just off the edge of the fairway, protecting the ideal line into the green.  Also note the addition of two bunkers short/left of the green.

Like the fairway on holes 4 and 5, the fairway on the 8th is severely canted, this one from right-to-left.  It is a very short par-5, but one must hug the right side with their tee shot if they hope to find the fairway.  Scrub area and fairway bunkers protect the ideal line.

Tee View:






From just short of fairway:




After a well-struck tee shot, most golfers will play their second from a large bowl in the fairway, between 180 and 210 yards from the green.  Playing uphill, the second shot is partially blind and the intrusion of the duo of fairway bunkers short-left of the green into the fairway is very difficult to see.  However, most golfers, noting the presence of the bunkers on the left, will play out to the right -- this is a big mistake on number 8.

Approach from 180:






If the golfer is forced to lay-up, he will do well to lay-up on the left side of the fairway.  The approach from the right, as pictured below, plays with the slope of the green and is very difficult to control.






Following the natural flow of the land, the 8th green has quite a significant leftward tilt.  Missing the green to the right leaves a nearly difficult recovery -- think missing Augusta National's 8th to the right, humps and all, and having the green slope significantly away.


Green as seen from fairway:






From back of green:

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