[Ronald Montesano]

It looks like we have threads within threads.

Mike N., I did not know that there were architects beyond Donald Ross, Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw that were involved with Pinehurst #2. Does anyone know their names?

Mark R., I detected a wee bit of sarcasm in the ellipsis, and confirmed it when I reread the post. It seems to me that greens ought to hold well-struck shots, especially those with sand wedges. They should not run off the green or bound over it.

Ryan, sorry that you got hosed on those two greens. I'll meet you for chipping practice later!

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 3: Par 4, 350 Yards

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:




The tee shot at the 3rd will be a lay-up for most.  It is about 240 yards to reach the bunker that splits the fairway width in half, and 270 yards to carry it.  The bunkers up the left, while deep and penal, will help the hookers among us by catching quick hooks before they travel too far into the woods, or worse, OB.

Tee View:






From Start of Fairway:




The ideal line into the green is from the right (here seen from the right rough).  Flashing of the bunker face, combined with bunkering short of the green makes depth perception a real problem.






Approach from centre of the fairway:




The Cross-Bunker (85 yards short of green):




Nearly impossible to see from the fairway, this bunker extends into the centre of the fairway, 20 yards short of the green:





Green as seen from fairway:




Like at the 2nd, there is nothing but fairway grass long/right of the green.  The slopes at the 3rd are more severe and shots that land right  or long of the green will not stop until they are a very long way away.  Another benign looking hole where the golfer can walk away with 6.

[Mac Plumart]

Chris B...GREAT photos.  Ross greens, I'd say!

Mark S...GREAT thread.  This is a course I truly love.  Thanks.

[Ronald Montesano]

The turtle-back theory at P2~Fact or fiction? I've read stories that contradict the "turtle-back-as-a-Ross-element" at P2.

[Michael Whitaker]

Ross greens, I'd say!

Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped:   http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/

Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.

But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

[Howard Riefs]

I believe Nicklaus did some work in the 80s and Rees Jones in the 90s, but my understanding of what is currently on the ground is Ross' work, restored by Coore & Crenshaw.

Correct, according to this timeline of No. 2 (http://www.pinehurst.com/new/PHNo2-timeline.pdf)

1987 -- Greens on No. 2 converted from Bermuda to bent and rebuilt to USGA specifications; Jack Nicklaus is selected as design consultant. Fairways converted to Tiffway 419 II Bermuda.

1997 -- Pinehurst No. 2 reopens after a nine-month renovation, with Rees Jones as consultant. Greens are rebuilt to USGA green construction specifications and seeded with Penn G-2 bent grass, a denser bentgrass able to withstand the Sandhills summers. New tees are built for the 5th, 6th, 10th, 12th, and 18th holes; holes 2, 4, 11 and 14 are lengthened.

The timeline mentions efforts to lengthen the course after Ross' death in 1948, but does not reference the architect:

1951 -- No. 2 lengthened to 7,013 yards for the Ryder Cup Matches.

1962 -- No. 2 lengthened to 7,051 yards for the U.S. Men's Amateur Championship.

There's also no reference to architect who led the effort to change the sand/natural wire grass areas to grass:

1972 -- No. 2 greens changed from Bermuda to bent grass to accommodate year-round play. Hard sand and wire grass natural areas flanking the fairways were replaced with grass.

[Mac Plumart]

Ross greens, I'd say!

Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped:   http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/

Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.

But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all.  They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said.  It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted.  You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.

But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?"  Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2.  If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole.  But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens.  Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.

[Sean_A]

Ross greens, I'd say!

Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped:   http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/

Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.

But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all.  They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said.  It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted.  You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.

But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?"  Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2.  If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole.  But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens.  Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.

Mac

#2's greens are famous for being turtlebacked!  Check out the link below.  There are more photos somewhere of the incredible differences in the greens today compared to yesteryear.  The originals look like Ross greens to me and a damn good and more interesting set.

Ciao


http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf

[Ronald Montesano]

Did anyone ask Coore and Crenshaw (or Mike Davis!) if return of greens to original nature was ever part of the plan? I would guess that it would have been too much of a risk, with the twin Opens only two to three years off

[Adam Clayman]

Mark, I believe I was pointing out what a great hole it is (and course) because the opinions of how to play, are not determined by the architect, but, by the individual.

[hhuffines]

There is a green very close to the Ross home (i dont remember the no.) at Essex County that is surely turtle backed and very interesting as compared to the # 2 greens.  I wondered if it were one he worked on over the years, experimenting. 

[Mac Plumart]

Ross greens, I'd say!

Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped:   http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/

Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.

But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all.  They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said.  It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted.  You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.

But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?"  Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2.  If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole.  But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens.  Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.

Mac

#2's greens are famous for being turtlebacked!  Check out the link below.  There are more photos somewhere of the incredible differences in the greens today compared to yesteryear.  The originals look like Ross greens to me and a damn good and more interesting set.

Ciao


http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf

Sean...

I am very familiar with #2 and I have seen that piece before.  Which is why I said that  Chris' pictures looked like Ross greens to me.  Thanks for posting that link/piece.  Again, great photos of the older greens.  I especially like to look at the original sand greens.  GREAT photos of those in the Tufts archives...another place to visit that makes Pinehurst extra special.  They've got notes, photos, and articles on virtually every Ross course ever built.  

[Josh Smith]

Great Photos Mark  !!!  and Chris too.  Thanks for sharing, looking forward to seeing more.

Josh

[Chris Buie]

The color photo is from right before the C/C intervention - the historic photo is from 1939.


I'm guessing this photo from the No. 2 website is from the early/mid '50's.


The reason you'd really want to know what Ross did with this hole is...because he lived on it for decades. It was a very considered hole - and a very considered course. You would be hard pressed to name many courses that received such a great deal of high caliber thinking over such a long period of time. That's why it is what it is. This course is the most representative of his thinking because, as you know, he fashioned it a bit here and there for many years. In a way, the course is almost like his personal cahier.
Interestingly, with this hole you can tell by the vintage images that there does not appear to be a strong peninsula jutting out onto the fairway about 230 yards out.

[Mark Saltzman]

Chris, I love the look of the hole in the 1939 aerial.  Not only is there no bunker narrowing the fairway, but the fairway widens significantly to the left once past the duo of fairway bunkers. 

Whereas the current iteration of the hole leaves little choice but to lay-up, the 1939 iteration rewards a golfer that is aggressive (and long) by providing added width.

I wonder why C&C did not restore the added width/remove the right fairway bunker? 

Could it be that the hole would then be too short/easy for the pros, as they could hit less than driver and still reach the portion of the fairway with the added width?  This would still require a driver for most resort guests.

[jeffwarne]

Good post Mark.
Further proof that restorations are not always restorations, but are when it's convenient

does anyone know whether sand will be hazard or through the green?
I vote all sand as hazard.

[Chris Buie]

Mark, I'm not entirely sure what he was thinking - only that it would have been highly considered since that was exactly what he was looking at from his porch for decades. I'm guessing since the second hole was such a beast and the extremely challenging fifth and sixth were coming right up that he wanted some balance. The main defense of the hole was the green with a very sharp back to front tilt. Putts not from below the hole here are entertaining to watch - even short putts. This hole (along with eight and fourteen) are the ones you really don't want to hit over. It was amusing to watch some of the not so strategic players in the tournaments try to go at flags which were near those sinister areas. Remember John Daly playing hockey behind the eighth green? Ross gives you a good place to miss it on the really hard holes but not here - because its a short iron in.
The hole would probably be too easy for a U.S. Open without that peninsula.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 4: Par 5, 507 Yards [Reportedly will play as a par-4 in the US Open]

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:




The slope of the 4th fairway, from left-to-right is significant, though this is not so easily detected when standing on the elevated tee.  It is 235 yards to carry the bunker on the left, and golfers will want to challenge it, as tee shots landing anywhere right of centre have a good chance of kicking into the fairway bunkers lining the right side of the fairway (about 250 to reach).

Tee View:






Once the golfer descends to the fairway from the elevated tee, he can more easily see the cant of the 4th fairway:




And again the slope of the fairway is obvious as seen from the low-point at the right edge of the fairway:





The green will be reachable in two for many, rendering a duo of staggered bunkers 100 yards (right) and 70 yards (left) largely out-of-play.  However, golfers that miss the fairway with their tee ball have a difficult lay-up.

The 2nd shot as seen from the right fairway bunker:




Approach from 70 yards out:




Green as seen from 5th tee:

[Chris Buie]

[Michael Whitaker]

...the answer is Seminole.  But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens.  Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.

Of course... the answer is Seminole. I keep forgetting that you have seen more great courses in 4.5 years of playing golf than most aficionados have in 45 years. Good on ya, mate!

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 4, 436 Yards

2008 Aerial:




2011 Aerial:





A top-shot bunker and a peak in the fairway hide the severely tilted driving zone.  While the fairway has ample width, its blind nature, and knowing the difficulty of the second shot that awaits, the golfer may be tempted to eek a few extra yards out of the drive and also a missed fairway.

Missing this fairway right is bad -- the green will likely be out-of-reach.

Missing the fairway left is worse -- from this angle, and playing from the scrub, the green is basically unhittable.


View from the tee:








Once the golfer crests the hill, the leftward tilt of the fairway becomes obvious.  A flat area on the left side prevents will struck tee-shots from ending up in the scrub area.




Easily the most difficult approach at Pinehurst No. 2.  With a huge false-front short, a menacing bunker to the left and an even deeper fall-off long-left, there is nowhere to miss [anything right of the green will be played down the slope of the green and nearly impossible].  From Ran's Review: Nothing within seven paces of the perimeter of the green allows for a cup, such is the manner in which this green slopes away on all sides.

Clever golfers will run the ball onto the green from the right-side, understanding that missing short-right is the only acceptable miss.  As Johnny Miller would say, from short of the green you make 5, option 4.

Approach from the centre of the fairway:
  





Approach from the left side of the fairway:




Approach from the scrub on the left:






From just short of green: Note the slopes that will collect balls toward the bunker.








A couple of looks from over the green: Note the fall-off to the left of the green

[Michael Whitaker]

Clever golfers will run the ball onto the green from the left-side, understanding that missing short-right is the only acceptable miss.  As Johnny Miller would say, from short of the green you make 5, option 4.

Mark - didn't you mean shots should be run on from the right side? Trying to run it on from the left would be next to impossible, wouldn't it?

[Mark Saltzman]

Mike, absolutely impossible! thanks for catching that.

[Chris Buie]

The reason it is such a tough par 4 is because...Ross designed it as a par 5.
Crenshaw said something similar about the Road Hole. And guess what these immortal holes have in common? They are both half par holes. That is the case with the 13th at Augusta, as well. It is by no means a coincidence that these paragons of design virtue have that aspect in common. That is a fact I'd take into serious consideration if I was a designer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Chris,

Great photo journey.

With respect to the "turtleback" nature of the greens, they were that way in the early 60's, so I wonder when the transition occurred and if there was a consulting architect, and who he was ?

And, if the transition occurred in stages rather than at one time.

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