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Mark_Rowlinson

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Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« on: October 13, 2010, 11:23:15 AM »
Reddish Vale is a very early MacKenzie course, only his third brand new complete 18-hole course after Alwoodley and Moortown. (For the record he had also by this time made alterations to Leeds GC and Harrogate and added nine new holes at Doncaster.) This was also MacKenzie’s first essay outside Yorkshire, with seven holes and the clubhouse lying in Lancashire and eleven holes in Cheshire.

Work began in 1910 and thirteen holes were ready for the opening in 1912. The remaining holes had been completed by July 1913, but when MacKenzie visited the course in October of that year he found that some holes had not been constructed as he had intended and alterations had to be made during the following winter.

The course is to be found at the end of a residential street in a suburban area of Stockport, but you are only aware of the housing on the 1st and 3rd holes, the rest of the course being wonderfully secreted away in a haven for nature straddling the River Tame. Yet you are only a stone’s throw from the ever-busy M60 motorway and a mere 4 miles from the centre of Manchester. For those flying into Manchester Airport, you could be on the 1st tee at Reddish Vale in only 15 minutes from collecting your hire car.

Sean Arble and I played on a beautiful autumn day with ne’er a cloud in the sky, for a bargain green fee of £18.50 each on a two-for-one scheme. The fairways and greens were in excellent shape – all except one green, which was undergoing maintenance. But more of that anon.

There are some quirks to the card with four par threes going out and only one coming in, resulting in an outward half of 2770 yards, par 33, and 3316 yards, par 36, for the back nine.

1.   421 yards par 4
The first five holes occupy a tract of high ground behind the clubhouse. From the first tee you get no impression of the adventures ahead. The prospect is of what seems to be a straightforward parkland hole.



Following a decent drive you discover that the green is located on the far side of a gully.



Most greens at Reddish Vale are quite small in area, and this one has a significant slope to it. It is almost a double green shared with the 4th, immediately behind it.



A winter shot, viewed from behind the green, reveals the nature of the undulations which are used so tellingly on this part of the course.



2.   179 yards par 3

This plays back over the gully we encountered on the 1st hole. The green is somewhat higher than the tee, calling for one or two clubs more than the card suggests.



There is enough slope on the green to provide many a tricky putt.



3.   390 yards par 4

An inviting downhill drive.



A marker post gives the ideal line. Sean has hit a monster drive here.



Again the approach is over low ground to a small green raised up on the far side.



Low winter sun brings out the movement in the land.



4.   166 yards par 3

It is not immediately apparent why out of bounds should be enforced on the left of this hole all the way from tee to green. Perhaps it is to spare you the indignity of trying to look for your ball in the steeply plummeting woodland beyond the trench on that side. But even without the out of bounds this is a very narrow target on the far side of yet more low ground, with a hill on the right, a long bunker on that side, and two to save you on the left.



Looking back from green to tee the closeness of the out of bounds markers to the direct line is readily apparent.



5.   306 yards par 4

Out of bounds is again a factor, lying only just off the fairway to the left and close to the left and rear of the green. The drive is made over yet another gully and a bunker 250 yards out threatens on the right, 55 yards short of the green.



The flat green, unusually for here, lies on level ground, making distance judgement tricky.



6.   240 yards par 3

A pleasant saunter down a woodland track leads to the 6th tee, and something completely different.




The River Tame flows through the trees on the left and is considered out of bounds. Three bunkers guard the entrance to the green on the left and two on the right. Although the green is far, far below the tee the ground down there is flat and there will be precious little roll once the ball has landed. This is a very dangerous hole in a swirling wind. Make a note of the pin position on the adjacent 18th green before leaving the 6th tee, because you will not be able to judge where it is from the bottom of the hill.

A look back from where we have descended.



7.   538 yards par 5

A bridge over the River Tame leads to Cheshire and the comparatively flat 7th. Good players should drive well clear of the fairway bunkers on the right, so there is little to inhibit a long drive other than trees first left, then right, which might cut out a long second shot.



The green is nicely framed in mound work to the rear.



8.   393 yards par 4

The ideal line is down the left, but the trees on that side are dense.



A ditch about 250 yards out from the tee will probably have restricted the length of the drive, so the approach shot to this beautifully sited green may be longer than you expect.





9.   137 yards par 3

This is a beauty!






Sean likened this green to a Redan. You can go straight for the pin but judging the carry is tricky. You will need to take two or three clubs more than usual for this distance. From the tee you cannot see a sinister little pot bunker just to the right of the entrance to the green. I thought my mishit iron shot would finish in it. But no! It hit the bank just of it and ran smartly to the left to finish on the ideal line. Maybe that is a valid way to play the hole, but it was not intended! The view from up here is delightful.




10.   343 yards par 4

Having climbed the hill it is time to go straight down. Out of bounds runs the entire length of the hole on the left, making it dangerous to hug the inside line with the fairway curving slightly left as it descends. The trees on the right are farther away than they look. To ordinary golfers the bunker on the right at 236 yards is of greater concern. Sean, accidentally, took the dangerous direct line to the green and almost drove the green.



This is said to be MacKenzie’s first ‘MacKenzie’ green. It is on two levels but, as Sean observantly pointed out, if they mowed the downhill approach a little it would be a Biarritz green. A delicious bunker on the diagonal guards the front right of the green, waiting to snap up the approach shot of those who took too cautious a line to the right off the tee. There is also a depression rear right of the green from which escape onto the putting surface requires a sure touch.





Sean’s reward for his daring line off the tee was this putt for his birdie.



11.   460 yards par 4
Apart from the 6th tee, every other tee so far has been right beside the previous green (albeit that a bridge is crossed to get to the 7th tee). The 11th tee, however, is a walk of about 200 yards from the 10th green. It ensures that this is the longest par four on the course. But there may be another reason for this. There is a patch of slightly raised ground beside the 10th green which could conceivably have been a tee. From there big hitters would be blasting the ball over the crest of the fairway in the distance hoping to reach the green in a single shot and putting those out of sight beyond the crest at risk. This is the view from today’s tee.



That crest is now about 340 yards from the tee, which means that most of us will be playing blind over it to the green. This is the view from about 120 yards out.



The later parts of the fairway lean from right to left and the fairway also curves gently right to left. The approach is hard to judge if it is being played blind. It looks innocuous from close to. The putting surface is only 26 yards deep.



12.   188 yards par 3

This is a good par three, all carry to a green sitting up on high ground. There is room, however, to land the ball short of the green and run it on. A bunker guards the front left of the green. If you are going to miss to the right, do it properly, for the rescue shot is much easier from the 7th fairway than from close to the ridge.



And a view looking back from green to tee. And how close that tee is to the previous green. User friendly routing!



13.   456 yards par 4

Once played, never forgotten, this is a corker of a hole. I presume this was originally a three-shot hole – and remains so for many of us – but if you boom away a big drive down the centre you may fancy going for the green in two. This is the view from the tee.



And from about here you might have a crack at the green. Only, where is it?



You might just be able to spot a flag beyond the left edge of the fairway as it climbs that distant ridge. If you know what to look for you may spot a white diamond-shaped board on a stick, the aiming marker. Having hit an excellent tee shot Sean was left with 175 yards to the pin according to the course guide. He could not believe it. The flag appeared much closer. But, with my encouragement, he committed to the iron which would carry him 175 yards. It flew exactly as expected and landed right in the centre of the green. As he climbed the ridge to look down to the green on the other side this is what he saw:



The real green had been taken out of action for maintenance. A temporary green had been cut at the top of the ridge and was, as Sean thought, well short of 175 yards!

Here are two photos of the green in play. Remember this is a blind approach, with a horrible pit down to the right of the putting surface which is only 26 yards deep.




Would MacKenzie have had a model for this hole or was it totally original?

14.   340 yards par 4

MacKenzie’s clever routing ensures that it is only a short walk to the next tee, which gives this inviting view.



The trees have grown a bit in the twenty or so years since I took that picture. This is what it is like today.



The river should not be a factor, but the better tee shot keeps to the left of the fairway to gain straight access to the green through the guarding bunkers.



Looking back from the green, the tee is in that clearing just below that ghastly apartment block on the skyline.



15.   477 yards par 5

For the shorter hitter this tee shot is a question of laying up short of the steep bank 190 yards away. The really big hitters go over the corner of the trees but this needs a carry of 270 yards or more. For the goodish player in between these extremes the drive is fierce, needing to clear the top of the ridge but not err the slightest bit to left or right.



If you can hit far enough with your tee shot there is a rewarding slightly downhill run in to the green, which is cleverly guarded by a dip in front, allied to five bunkers.



16.   322 yards par 4

Another little gem.



From the medal tee (above) it is hard to make out exactly where the green is. From the yellow tee, further to the left, the flag is visible and so is the trouble you must avoid if you want to get close to the green. The farther you hit the ball the tighter the hole becomes.



Even from close to the approach is nervy with the river flowing round both sides and the back of this narrow green.




17.   377 yards par 4

I was told years ago that this was not MacKenzie’s 17th and as if by way of confirmation there is a walk back down the 16th fairway of some 200 yards to the 17th tee. As we played I could not envisage where that 17th hole might have been, but having looked on Google Earth it could conceivably have been a short hole crossing the river or on the other side of it to a green close to the final tee.

This is the view from today’s 17th tee. On the right in the distance you can see the 15th green close to which are the 16th tees. From the 17th tee you have to play across the 16th fairway towards the bank on the right and beyond. Trees and the river threaten on the left.



Given a decent drive the approach shot is not arduous. A little stream or ditch has been opened up 60 yards short of the putting surface. If my memory serves me correctly this was done about twenty years ago at the same time as a land slip closed the 10th hole for a while.



18.   353 yards par 4

It is only a short walk back over the same bridge that connects the 6th green and 7th tee to find the final tee. What a monster faces those of us no longer so youthful! It is 200 yards or so to the bottom of the hill and it would be foolish to attempt to gain extra distance up the hill which is narrow and ever so slightly angled to the left.



Having laid up successfully at the bottom of the hill, this confronts you.



You have about 150 yards to go, but it feels like 250! For the good player who hits towering irons it is no problem but for us geriatrics we cannot hope to get the length and height at the same time. Invariably we fall short.



I believe that MacKenzie’s original 18th fairway was terraced. I have no idea when or why it was smoothed out. But whatever the merits or demerits of this hole, Reddish Vale is a must play if ever you are in the Manchester area.





« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:37:24 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »

Jim Eder

Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 12:47:45 PM »
Very nicely done. Thanks for sharing, it looks like a lot of fun!!

Niall C

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 02:07:44 PM »
Mark

Fantastic stuff. It does look as though it might be a bit tiring on the legs or are the hills not too bad ?

The other thing was there only looked to be one "Mackenzie" green and certainly nothing outlandish.

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 02:44:15 PM »
Mark -

Thanks for the photo tour. Reddish Vale has interested me for some time, just for its name alone. Your pictures make it even more inviting.

DT
tcmnav@aol.com

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 05:58:44 PM »
Niall,

The only significant ascent is the final hole. Otherwise nothing is severe. That was his problem, getting back to the clubhouse.

Mark.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 08:04:12 PM »
Thanks Mark for the informative photo tour.
Nick and I stopped in at RVGC on our way back from visiting you last April, we only had a chance for a quick look at a couple of holes, so thanks for filling in what I did not see!
Neil

Jason McNamara

Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 08:05:05 PM »
Mark, this is great.  Glad to see you are posting your tours again.

Jason

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 01:51:38 PM »
I got a chance to play RV with Mark a few years ago.  It is a fascinating course.  There are many holes that are completely unique.  Too bad it is in a neighborhood that is not conducive to getting new members. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2012, 12:55:21 PM »
As it is Reddish Vale's centenary year, I hope you will forgive my bumping this. I played here yesterday with Duncan Cheslett and a friend from Scotland. They have taken out a lot of trees and the improvement is immense. I do commend Reddish Vale to anyone passing the Manchester area. It is unique and great fun. Its condition for so early in the season was impressive.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2012, 06:28:51 PM »
Nice Mark, hope you enjoyed your round.

Were you able to find out anything from Duncan or the club about that possible Mac plan?

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 07:01:01 AM »
Neil, I hope Duncan will see this and chime in. I haven't been able to get access to any of the club's archive because it is kept at the home of one of the members! He is supposed to be writing the club's centenary book, but this is not coming out until after the centenary. He is reputed to think that the club has no history! I'll try again.

Brent Hutto

Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 07:43:29 AM »
I can hardly wait until September when I'll get to see Reddish Vale for myself. From this photo tour it strikes me as very reminiscent of Pasatiempo except without the housing and some of the narrow-corridor holes. Including I suppose the substantial uphill hike at the end as the course finds its way back to the clubhouse on high ground.

On these transatlantic trips of mine it's amazing the quality of (inland) courses that are so nearby to the airport on arrival day. Not really a surprise that one can get off an international flight and be playing golf an hour or two later. But there aren't many places in USA I can think of where there are courses the caliber of Reddish Vale just a few minute's taxi ride away upon landing. Remarkable. And a Dr. Mac course to boot!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 09:57:22 AM »
Brent, You would be most welcome at Wilmslow, too.

Brent Hutto

Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 01:14:28 PM »
Mark,

Should a suitable opportunity arise before my return to the Manchester airport I will most definitely check out Wilmslow.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour New
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2012, 03:17:30 AM »
Neil, I hope Duncan will see this and chime in. I haven't been able to get access to any of the club's archive because it is kept at the home of one of the members! He is supposed to be writing the club's centenary book, but this is not coming out until after the centenary. He is reputed to think that the club has no history! I'll try again.


I shall try and pull some strings.

I keep getting contradictory claims about what exactly there is in the club archives. Some say that they have seen original plans of the course, yet the guy with all the stuff at his home claims that nothing exists. Its all a bit mysterious...

« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 04:36:01 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2012, 09:17:57 AM »
Mark, as I recall the club maintains that number six inspired number four at ANGC. Correct?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2012, 09:19:57 AM »
Good luck Duncan with your mission, if you choose to accept it.........
(and cue music)

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 01:28:41 PM »
Tommy,

In response to your question about the 6th at RVGC being a template for the 4th at ANGC I can't say. I don't remember its being mentioned when we visited RVGC, but it could well have been. Certainly both holes are long, downhill par threes with bunkering either side and an open entrance at the front.

There are all sorts of potential prototypes for holes at ANGC, such as the 10th at Alwoodley being a model for the 13th at Augusta, but did MacKenzie see the completed 10th at Alwoodley? Or did it matter of he did or didn't? He had obviously anticipated a hole of that type when he made his course map of ca 1910, at such time as the relevant land became available.

Had MacKenzie any experience of Stoke Poges? There's a short hole there that is supposed to have been the prototype for the 12th at Augusta. It's certainly plausible. 

As ever,

Mark.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 03:37:56 AM »
Mark and Tommy
No mention of any Reddish Vale holes in Mackenzie's description of the ANGC holes. But the 1st hole (current 10th) was to embody the most attractive features of the 13th at Cypress Point and the 4th at Alwoodley.

The seventh (current 16th) was "a somewhat similar hole over a stream to the best hole (seventh) at Stoke Poges, England". Certainly Mac must have been familiar with Stoke Pages in that case.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 03:49:54 AM »
Mark and Tommy
No mention of any Reddish Vale holes in Mackenzie's description of the ANGC holes.

I'm not sure that MacKenzie ever referred to Reddish Vale again. Indeed, judging from the letter to the club in 1924 one suspects that his memory of the place had become a little vague...



Nov 30th 1924

Dear Sir,

I have been away all week so have been unable to reply to your letter sooner.

I find I can visit your course on Thursday Dec 11th, it is possible I may arrive on the Wednesday night.

Please, let me have a plan of your existing course on my arrival.

Yours faithfully,

A MacKenzie


Incidentally, there is no evidence that this proposed visit ever took place. Nor has any copy of the letter he is replying to turned up. On the day in question he was actually at Seaton Carew.

It sounds like he had been asked to consult on changes to the course; are any of you Mackenzie scholors familiar with this letter and was Reddish Vale even the recipient? It would make more sense to me if it had been sent to Seaton Carew.

If MacKenzie were to have made a trip back to Reddish Vale surely sometime during the previous 12 months would have made sense - he spent a lot of that time only a 30 minute train journey away at Cavendish.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 04:23:26 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 06:04:52 PM »
Hi Duncan
Thanks for posting that letter, and raising the possibility that it was referring to Seaton Carew. This sent me to my photocopies from the Seaton Carew history book and lo and behold there lies a reproduction of this letter! So there would seem little question that this letter is to Seaton Carew and not Reddish Vale. How it came to be associated with Reddish Vale I do not know! Any ideas?

So it would seem that Mackenzie did not visit Reddish Vale post WW1 as this letter had indicated he may have. Also, if this letter was to Reddish Vale then you would have thought he might have mentioned his familiarity with the course from before WW1.

cheers Neil

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) Photo Tour New
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 08:54:34 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up, Neil.

I've no idea how a copy of the letter got to be in the Reddish Vale archives. I'll tell our 'historian' not to waste any time and energy following this up.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 04:39:03 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

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