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Jim Johnson

Velvet
« on: April 09, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »
I'm very curious about this type of grass. It seems to have lost a lot of love over the years, but in recent times has seen a bit of a reemergence. I know that the greens at Eagle's Nest in Ontario (Canada) were planted with Velvet. I've talked with Duane Sharpe at Blackhawk near Edmonton, who had (has?) a Velvet putting green in his practice area, and had told me at one time that it was his staff's favorite green to cut. And Monarch Dunes in California, a course which I'll play in a month's time, also has Velvet greens.

Wondering what other courses, in recent times, have built putting greens using Velvet?

Reading from this management paper ...
http://www.growercentral.com/UPLOADS/PDFS/velvet%20bentgrass%20management.pdf

.... it states that "Velvet bentgrass has the finest leaf texture, highest shoot density
and smoothest playing surface of all turfgrasses, including the
creeping and colonial bentgrasses. Velvets possess exceptional
drought, shade and disease tolerance and while requiring very
low levels of nitrogen fertility. Velvets also have good wear
stress tolerance and, according to some researchers, better heat
tolerance than was once considered."

Some knocks against it might include its slowness in establishing (patience is a virtue), thatch production (manageable), and its inability to creep, instead growing in "bunches".

But hey, "smoothest playing surface"?

Curious as to anyone's knowledge of, and/or experience with ... Velvet?

Thanks,
Jim

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Velvet
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 09:22:40 PM »
We tested it as part of a mixture with A-4 on a practice green at San Francisco Golf Club, before we rebuilt the greens there ... with the hope that the two fine-bladed grasses would make a good mixture and that the velvet bentgrass would be more resistant to the nematodes there.  No dice ... it really didn't do well at all.

They talk a lot about it in the old books (1920's) but it sounds like it was always pretty finicky and only did well in the exact right place.  It's an interesting grass but no one has put the money into trying to develop it into something useful.

Jim Johnson

Re: Velvet
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 09:45:41 PM »
Tom, any idea what the pH levels are at the SFGC? Sharpee told me that Velvet does not like high ph, and at Blackhawk I think it's 8.0+.

P.S. Thanks for hooking up with Michael Robin for the video on "Creating Old MacDonald". Great stuff.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Velvet
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 11:01:16 PM »
Jim,

My home club in NJ had velvet greens and they were sensational.

Over 50 years, there's probably only 10-25 % velvet now.

It's a cool weather grass probably common in New England.

I had understood that there were new strains but haven't heard of many clubs going to it.

Jeffrey Stein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 12:55:31 AM »
Bayonne Golf Club has velvet bent on their greens.  I caddied there for the 1st and 3rd years the club was open for play.  The only obvious issues with the greens were a bit of slime mold in spots (black spongy blemishes).  Otherwise those greens were very true and well taken care of by the super Bob Wolverton.
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 05:36:36 AM »
Shelter Harbor has Velvet
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 06:51:07 AM »
My home club built a new practice green a few years ago in Alexandria, MN with Velvet as a component in the blend. Not sure of the specifics but our Supt., Donnacha O'Connor, would have the details.  It's the best surface on the course today. Phone is 320-762-2004 
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 07:24:48 AM »
I could be wrong,perhaps one of our GCA architects could confirm but I seem to remember That Velvet bent was developed by a gentleman named Manny Francis and was first utilised at Vesper CC in Tyngsboro ,Mass.

Could someone enlighten us?
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 11:07:00 AM »
I did some work with velvet greens around 2000. Great putting surface, great density, good colour on little water and good grass to maintain (low input) but it does thatch up like nothing else I have ever seen.

Jon

Jim Johnson

Re: Velvet
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 03:30:04 PM »
I'm really surprised that more research (of late) hasn't been done on it, and more new courses haven't tried it. I suppose perhaps it's the old "tried and true" theory that new courses want to stick with, but considering Velvet's qualities, as Jon has confirmed, with good results from low inputs (water/fertilizers/fungicides), one might think that more courses wouldn't give it a go. It sounds like it provides an exceptional surface and an extremely true roll.

Jim

Chris Munoz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 03:35:22 PM »
Shelter Harbor in Charlestown, RI has Velvet bentfrass on the greens.  I was part of the grow-in at the course.  we planted the velvet on sand based greens.  It is a Hurdzan-Fry design.  Great layout.  Also there are numerous course in Conn. that have Velvet greens.  right now the names of the course I cant remember. 
Christian C. Munoz
Assistant Superintendent Corales
PUNTACANA Resort & Club
www.puntacana.com

Jim Johnson

Re: Velvet
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 03:42:24 PM »
Chris, I'm curious, how long did the grow-in take for those greens ... how long before people were actually putting on them? And how long was it between planting the seeds and the opening of the course?
I've read that Velvet is really slow in establishing.

Thanks.
Jim

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 04:05:49 PM »
Jim,
Here's an informative article on Velvet. You mentioned Velvet as "requiring very low levels of nitrogen fertility",  and that seems to be one of the reasons for its decline as superintendents started increasing their rates of fertilization post WW11. Also mentoined: not much research was given to Velvet as pure seed wasn't available until sometime in the 60s. 

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1970s/1975/750907.pdf
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Johnson

Re: Velvet
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 01:17:57 AM »
Just read on the PGA Tour's website that the greens on the TPC Scottsdale course are Velvet.
Anybody played that course?

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 02:37:35 AM »
Monarch Dunes in Nipomo, CA had incredibly true and firm velvet bent greens for 3 years or so, but last year they had noticeably declined. Poa was invading rapidly and the competing species made for very uneven surfaces. the greens were also much softer than in previous years.

Once poa comes in, it seems as though supers water more liberally to keep the poa from browning, thus accelerating its takeover. Is this the case (in California if not elsewhere)?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Velvet
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 06:54:18 AM »
Jim's et. Al.,

I wonder if the "velvet" at Scottsdale isn't the newer strain.

I've heard the older strain refered to as "German" bent.

Does anyone know the genetic difference in the two ?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 09:14:50 AM »
The old German bent was a mix of Colonial, Creeping and Velvet grasses that were grown in fields in southern Germany.

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 09:49:02 AM »
Interesting article on the origins of Velvet bent.


Chris Hans

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 11:18:38 AM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43019.0.html

"I have worked with Vesper Velvet for three years.  In a mono-stand it could be great.
But once the Poa gets in the trouble begins. We had a lot of Poa and creeping
bentgrass as well. There was a product on the market years ago called tri-calcium-
arsenate which kept the Poa out. It is no longer available.  In the spring the
Poa breaks dormancy long before the Velvet does. The Poa grows actively while
the Velvet does not. The result is bumpy surfaces until early May.  At right about
the same time the Velvet begins actively growing, the Poa begins to produce
seed-head.  So the bumpiness continues for even longer.

Tom, some of your greens, being as wild as they are, may be good with Velvet bentgrass.  You would just need to find a superintendent who could manage the thatch through aggressive aeration, etc.. and still keep the Poa out. 

Vesper Velvet has the finest leaf texture of any turf I have ever seen. The
only thing that is even close is A1 bentgrass when it is super lean (low N).
We tinkered around with different fertility levels over the years and found the
greens were best with about .12lbs of N every two weeks during the growing
season.  I wouldn’t say that is a high fertility level by any means.  Managing
our Velvet greens at a high level was like walking a tight rope without a net.
One slip up and you're finished.  Velvet does not recover from any injury
(wilt, mechanical, disease) very quickly.  We are very aggressive here at
Vesper and we pushed those greens harder than they were meant to be pushed.
There were times when we had great greens (firm and fast, stimping 11 plus).
It was just very difficult to sustain a high level for any length of time. We
cut pretty low (.110) but not super low.

Over the years there were some questionable management practices in place at
Vesper.  Topdressing with #2 hardwood sawdust, the lack of any core aeration
and the proliferation of massive trees around the greens just to name a few.
Every time we did a nematode assay the results came back at 2-3 times the
threshold for treatment.  Nematode issues were a big problem for us. We
conducted a series of soil physical property tests to see what we were up
against and to tailor our programs accordingly.  All of the tests came back with the
same results: low infiltration rates of water and high organic matter
percentages.  Not exactly conducive for championship quality greens.  The club
was faced with two solutions: Aerate aggressively and frequently or rebuild.
The members chose to rebuild."

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 02:46:51 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 03:29:45 PM »
Just read on the PGA Tour's website that the greens on the TPC Scottsdale course are Velvet.
Anybody played that course?

The Champions course at TPC Scottsdale is Emerad bermudagrass. The Stadium course is overseed on an ultradwaft. Not sure which, but certain is not velvet bentgrass.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Velvet
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 04:47:12 PM »
Tony,
Velvet is used in the overseed mix, often along with poa triv and even some fescues.
Supers are less concerned about transitioning out the bent with the chemistry now available.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 05:35:20 PM »
Tony,
Velvet is used in the overseed mix, often along with poa triv and even some fescues.
Supers are less concerned about transitioning out the bent with the chemistry now available.

Don,
  Most definitely. But I'm sure you'd agree, as an overseed, it wouldn't be the "true velvet" that I think this discussion refers to. Seems like a lot more Supts in the SW use some bent with the triv seed. It must have sucked to transition turf before the SU herbicides.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom Bagley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Velvet
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 05:42:59 PM »
Both Belmont (MA) CC and Vesper CC have recently completely re-built their greens with what is (I believe) a new type of Velvet.  Perhaps someone with better knowledge of those clubs could provide a more definite answer.  The greens at Belmont performed spectacularly during the 2009 Mass Open despite torrential rains before and during the championship.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Velvet
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 06:18:01 PM »
Tony,
Velvet is used in the overseed mix, often along with poa triv and even some fescues.
Supers are less concerned about transitioning out the bent with the chemistry now available.

Don,
  Most definitely. But I'm sure you'd agree, as an overseed, it wouldn't be the "true velvet" that I think this discussion refers to. Seems like a lot more Supts in the SW use some bent with the triv seed. It must have sucked to transition turf before the SU herbicides.

Tony: yes, I agree. I guess it sounds cooler to say velvet bent then overseeded bermuda.
I don't know that it sucked before SU, but it's easier now

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