Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition

[Mike Hendren]

Michael,

The pin should NEVER be there for serious play. NEVER. (It is fine for outings and other days where you simply want to change things up. Our super puts the pin up there on Tuesdays to give the green a rest and the ladies like the break.)

Bill, while I appreciate a fellow Biarritz apologist, I disagree 100%.  While not originally the case, the front tier is extremely relevant in today's game and provides great elasticity in the playability of the hole - a factor I give great weight to.  Otherwise, the Biarritz is the same hole day in and day out.   Would you also opine that the front left tongue of the 4th green at Augusta National Golf Club should not be pinned as well?

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

It seems that I recall the biarritz at Lookout Mountain had the front tier at fairway height.  Doesn't this prove that the design is flawed when faced with the practical nature of most clubs?  In other words, the strategic value does not equate to the maintenance costs.  Kinda like that bunker that gets filled in because no one hit it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me also say that I approve and love to play classic biarritz greens on courses that can afford to maintain them.  I wouldn't suggest putting a pitched roof on a Frank Lloyd Wright house for the same reason.

The one I have played that is in opening day condition is at St. Louis CC.  The thing about that par 3 is that it is so long and uphill that I could give a damn about the contour of the green from the tee.  You get around 220 or so and I'm just aiming somewhere close to where the flag sits.  The ole straight and far strategy.

[Bill Brightly]

Michael,

The pin should NEVER be there for serious play. NEVER. (It is fine for outings and other days where you simply want to change things up. Our super puts the pin up there on Tuesdays to give the green a rest and the ladies like the break.)

Bill, while I appreciate a fellow Biarritz apologist, I disagree 100%.  While not originally the case, the front tier is extremely relevant in today's game and provides great elasticity in the playability of the hole - a factor I give great weight to.  Otherwise, the Biarritz is the same hole day in and day out.   Would you also opine that the front left tongue of the 4th green at Augusta National Golf Club should not be pinned as well?

Mike

Considering the front section as pinnable in serious competition is EXACTLY like playing any par 4 or par 5 from the red tees. It is certainly taking advantage of the "elasticity" provided by the red tees, but you have completely robbed the hole of the intended shot value. You have created a completely different hole. I guess that has entertainment value. (Last year we played a Greenskeepers Revenge event with the hole cut on the edge of the front section, that was VERY cool.) But except for the new rage in driveable par 4's, I don't see many course setups using forward tees to completely change the play of a hole.

I am not going opine about Augusta or any other non-Biarritz green with several distinct pinnable sections, because that is irrelevant. Of course you want to use those hole locations. I just know from experience that cup locations on the (former) fairway sections of Biarritz holes create the most boring, mundane par threes known to man. It is like looking at Brooklyn Decker in a bikini and saying: "nah, today let's dress her up in sweat pants and a hoody to take advantage of our options..."

[Bill Brightly]

It seems that I recall the biarritz at Lookout Mountain had the front tier at fairway height.  Doesn't this prove that the design is flawed when faced with the practical nature of most clubs?  In other words, the strategic value does not equate to the maintenance costs.  Kinda like that bunker that gets filled in because no one hit it.

I have never played Lookout but from the Google Earth images I can't see where the front section ever was cut at fairway height. Maybe someone from TN can provide insight. I may be wrong but the turf looks really brown and firm. Perhaps they don't need green-height to have a good ground game option on their Biarritz?

John, if you read my post 24, I tried to list the virtues of maintaining the front section as putting surface. The benefits are huge, IMO, especially on a clay-based site where wet conditions are common. I'll try to find out how much extra we spend each year to keep it at green height, but I don't think it is terribly more expensive than fairway.

I'll tell you this: we now have a Biarritz at Hackensack that plays in the MacRaynor style instead of just another long, boring par 3 that could be on ten thousand other courses. And from a financial perspective, I would agrue that this change adds to the enjoyment of 80-90 % of our members (even if the "sticks" fly over it) as opposed to what we spend to maintain our black tees, which may get used by 5 or 6 groups per weekend.

[Jud_T]

Michael,

Don't "dismiss" Biarritz holes with the front section as putting surface. The pin should NEVER be there for serious play. NEVER. (It is fine for outings and other days where you simply want to change things up. Our super puts the pin up there on Tuesdays to give the green a rest and the ladies like the break.)

So if you accept that the pin should ALWAYS be on the back tier, a front section maintained as putting surface is merely creating the fastest, firmest possible fairway. It has HUGE added benefits for the play of the hole.

The biggest change is the first bounce. At least 50% of the players can't hit it far enough to fly the ball to the back. So a "green-height" firm landing area will hit and roll out, especially when the shot is low, such as you would expect with drivers and 3-woods. The shorter grass means faster roll, again benefitting those playing for the roll out. I have seen this firsthand as we lowered our run up to fairway height 5 years ago. Many shorter hitters could never reach the green, the (soft) fairway just gobbled up their balls and they played the hole hoping for a chip and putt par, which really was fairly simple. Now, many of these same players are reaching the back section and I have to tell you it is fun to listen to them hoot and holler as the ball is rolling. However, balls hit a tad too soft are rolling all the way back down the swale, leaving a REALLY tough two-putt, where as they use to stop on the upslope when swale was fairway height.

I agree that many long hitters simply attempt to fly it to the back section. Given today's equipment, there are two things that must occur to "keep the hole relevant" for the best players. First, you need a black tee at 245-265 to take 3 iron and rescue clubs out of their hands. (Bahto says 270 would be perfect ) Secondly, the green must be really firm. The first bounce must be low and hard, not biting. I understand that these conditions are difficult to maintain, but when they can be accomplished, it absolutely changes how long hitters must play the hole.  Hackensack's is playing that way at the moment, and you'll just have to trust me that the "fly it to the pin" strategy has changed. (I hope weather conditions permit this to continue.)

Bill,

One of the better detailed descriptions of how the holes were meant to play IMO...

[Bill Brightly]

I've posted these before, but why not repeat for the sake of discussion?

Biarritz as built by Banks



As just another long par 3 (1961-2007)



Restore!




Restoring the swale




Done! ( I know some don't like the square tee boxes opposite the rounded curves of the green and bunkers...)



Before


After

[Mike Hendren]

Bill, great photographs!  Really like the one with the dozer plowing through the middle of the green. 

Don't you think a pin set a few feet in front of the swale would be interesting? 

As for Lookout Mountain the front is maintained as fairway. The hole is somewhat unique in that the swale appears to be fairly natural and only the left half is usable as anything short right will kick farther right into the deep bunker.  In other words the swale flares out on the right side.

Mike

[Phil McDade]

Bill:

Thanks for those photos; much improved.

Two questions:

What does the hole play out, say from the regular, members tees and the tips?

Do you think the two small tongues of the bunkers that pinch the front of the green discourage the traditional method of playing the hole? They look like they might.

I always thought Macdonald envisioned the Biarritz as a test of a player hitting a long shot with a fairway wood, maybe even driver, but to a large-ish green that's a bit more forgiving target.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,  

Don't you think a pin set a few feet in front of the swale would be interesting?  

Mike

(Earlier post amended, did not read your question correctly.) A pin cut close to the swale is VERY interesting. Even putting from the front section, you have to be careful not to knock it down the swale. It is the only front pin placement I can tolerate

The dozer is not in the middle of the green . It is in the middle of the swale...which is just past the fairway-height approach!

[Bill Brightly]

Bill:

Thanks for those photos; much improved.

Two questions:

What does the hole play out, say from the regular, members tees and the tips?

Do you think the two small tongues of the bunkers that pinch the front of the green discourage the traditional method of playing the hole? They look like they might.

I always thought Macdonald envisioned the Biarritz as a test of a player hitting a long shot with a fairway wood, maybe even driver, but to a large-ish green that's a bit more forgiving target.

Phil,

To the middle of the back section, the hole plays about 190 from the white, 225 from the blue and 245 from the black.

The "small tongues" you describe are so far from the back section that they should never come into play, unless Mike is cutting the cups . The green is 78 yards from front to back. The "tongues" are just a visual distraction, your ball needs to land 10 to 20 yards past them to have any hope of reaching the back tier. The back section of the green is certainly large enough to accept all forms of running shots. I don't know what clubs Macdonald envisioned players using, I'll have to ask TE Paul . However, the hole did give rise to the phrase "Biarritz shot" and our old Scottish pro used to give lessons on how to hit it.

[Jud_T]

Bill,

What is the modern equivalent of the Biarritz shot,  the 3-wood Stinger?

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

What is the modern equivalent of the Biarritz shot,  the 3-wood Stinger?

I dunno, when I figure out how to hit one, I'll let you know. Seriously, I have been working on it for 5 years with mixed success. I think the 3-wood stinger will work, and I have tried it, but I can't keep it straight. Misses end up in the FRONT left and right bunkers, which are just brutal, long sand shots. I am now alternating between trying to adapt my hook shot recovery swing, or my low 3-wood fade, depending on what side of the green the pin is on. It is a goal of mine this year to settle on one shot!

I think the old equipment would not have worked with a 3 wood stinger. My guess is that it would have been a longer swing, wristier shot.


I just stumbled across a pretty good write-up by Ian Andrew about Biarritz holes:

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2006/06/biarritz-green.html

[John_Cullum]

Bill,

What is the modern equivalent of the Biarritz shot,  the 3-wood Stinger?

I dunno, when I figure out how to hit one, I'll let you know. Seriously, I have been working on it for 5 years

Need we continue?

[Joe Leenheer]

I've posted these before, but why not repeat for the sake of discussion?

Biarritz as built by Banks



As just another long par 3 (1961-2007)



Restore!




Restoring the swale




Done! ( I know some don't like the square tee boxes opposite the rounded curves of the green and bunkers...)



Before


After

The big tell is in the bottom two pictures.  There are considerably more cars in the parking lot post renovation.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

What is the modern equivalent of the Biarritz shot,  the 3-wood Stinger?

I dunno, when I figure out how to hit one, I'll let you know. Seriously, I have been working on it for 5 years

Need we continue?

Sarge, you are back in this thread? Wow, I thought you hightailed it outta here How is that list of Biarritz holes that you have played coming along?

[John_Cullum]

I just love you Raynorphiles. I can think of 5 of the top of my head. I am sure I have forgotten a few. By your account, aren't they all the same?

[Bill Brightly]

I just love you Raynorphiles. I can think of 5 of the top of my head. I am sure I have forgotten a few. By your account, aren't they all the same?

Five that you know of or five that you have played?

They are anything but the same. Some of them (like Forsgate) are on flat sites where the green complex is the only distinguishing feature, others have fairly dramatic settings.The Creek uses water as hazards bodering the green. St. Louis has 3 bunkers on the left, one on the right, and plays markedly uphill. Fishers Island has the front section as fairway but it tilts. Old Macdonald plays downhill, the only one that I know of that does. Yale's might be the most famous, with water in front, the deepest swale I have ever seen, and an absolutely cool setting for the back section.

Are you at least ready to admit that you might have typed too fast when you said there was nothing good about the design?

[Joe_Tucholski]

The big tell is in the bottom two pictures.  There are considerably more cars in the parking lot post renovation.

I get what your saying but I'd guess the summer vs fall/winter probably had more to do with the number of cars in the lot.

Also the question mark bunker is certainly interesting.

[John_Cullum]

I dunno, when I figure out how to hit one, I'll let you know. Seriously, I have been working on it for 5 years with mixed success. I think the 3-wood stinger will work, and I have tried it, but I can't keep it straight. Misses end up in the FRONT left and right bunkers, which are just brutal, long sand shots. I am now alternating between trying to adapt my hook shot recovery swing, or my low 3-wood fade, depending on what side of the green the pin is on.

I have no intention of listing Biarritz holes I have experienced. You continue to try to defend the indefensible. Your quote above makes my case.

Ross and Mackenzie were emulated long after their day. This contrived Raynor crap fell out of disfavor with the golfing public, but you'll never see that. You'll praise it like your prized can of Manzoni feces. Enjoy.

Bogey, I am truly sorry that your belated photo friday was derailed by my actions

[Jud_T]

This contrived Raynor crap fell out of disfavor with the golfing public

Exhibit 1 that we're not all a bunch of lemmings...

[Bill Brightly]

Sarge,

If you were a Newbie, I would handle your thoughtless posts with a lighter touch. But since you have over 2500 posts on GCA, you get no such quarter and we would have hoped that you might have learned a thing or two about golf course architecture along the way. Sadly, we can see no evidence that this is the case.

When you make a statement criticizing the design of a hole, you should be able to support your opinion. At least TRY. You have offered NOTHING backing up your opinion, while I have offered facts, photos and playing experience to support the design merits of the hole.

It is funny how often you can get a sense for a poster in one or two sentences. While most people can admit their dumb mistakes, (we all make them) apologize and move on, you don't have that ability. So you dig deeper!

Here are some Raynor "crap" Biarritz holes

Fishers Island (Sarge, exactly what year did this course fall out of favor with golfers?)


Fox Chapel


Yale

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a nice blog written by some guy that worked on Old Mac.

http://bandondreamgolf.blogspot.com/2010/06/builder.html

I think it shows how a biarritz can be built that fits the modern eye by not building a biarritz at all.  What is sad is that we, people with acquaintances from this site, occasionally get bored to death by the same people who call every sloping green a redan.  We get it.

Speaking of Bogey, I do believe the first green at Legends is a biarritz.  Tee hee.

[Mike Hendren]

Bogey, I am truly sorry that your belated photo friday was derailed by my actions

Unnecessary Sarge.   You're my boy.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

I just love you Raynorphiles. I can think of 5 of the top of my head. I am sure I have forgotten a few. By your account, aren't they all the same?

Sarge

I am not sure how you can call all these Bs the same.  There are enough differences to my eye to create some distinction. 

I have only seen one proper B and I must admit its quality flew straight over my head.  To me it seemed like a hit and hope hole.  Not a lot of room east/west, but with a wood in hand.  I recall after playing the hole that I thought the version I played would have been better as a drivable par 4 - probably not much different to the original idea except for the par designation.  In any case, as more of a 240-280 hole I think I would like the concept better. 

Ciao