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Mike Hendren

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Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« on: April 09, 2012, 11:40:07 AM »
I was too busy hooking  Miller Lites down at the beach Friday while leafing through "Titanic Thompson - The Man Who Bet On Everything." Hence the Monday edition:

The Biarritz at Forsgate:










Today's 1st green at The Eden from back right:




The elusive Lightning Bug Golf Course at Solitude (with 4 new holes and a new range)
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 11:44:46 AM »
B,

Thanks for the picture of the Biarritz as it perfectly exposes why they fell out of favor.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 12:15:20 PM »
B,

Thanks for the picture of the Biarritz as it perfectly exposes why they fell out of favor.

I'll bite, why did they fall out of favor?

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 12:18:33 PM »
Because there is nothing good about the design
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill_McBride

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 12:19:43 PM »
Because there is nothing good about the design

Barney doesn't need your help answering this one.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 12:32:05 PM »
Because there is nothing good about the design

Barney doesn't need your help answering this one.

Barney doesn't need help, but Sarge will..

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 12:39:18 PM »
Because there is nothing good about the design

Barney doesn't need your help answering this one.

I am sure that is true. I just happen to agree with him. The only way it works is if the plateaus are oversized
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 12:46:50 PM »
"Nothing" good about the design, Sarge?

It is not good design to have one long par 3 to test a players long game?

It is not good design to test a player's mental focus by asking him to hit a straight ball dead into the prevailing wind, with parallel bunkers menacing if the player misses left or right?

It is not good design to create a par 3 that when played with truly fast and frm conditions, requires the player to THINK, to decide if he should try to fly the ball to the back (using a longer club which is by definition less accurate) or hit something low and running? Will a ball flown to the back hold?

It is not good design to make the player who chooses to run it up to opt between draw, fade, or straight ball and be able to judge how far his ball will roll out?

It is not good design to provide players the thrill of watching a well hit runner disappear into the swale, then re-appear as it runs on to the back section?

It is not good design to have a hole that is unique to the MacRaynor school?

It is not good design to have a hole that is just pure fun when approached with the right mental attitude? (As opposed to whiny players who want certain outcomes...)

It is not good to design a hole that emphasizes the ground game?

I guess I don't much about good hole design.

What could CB Macdonald have been thinking about when he built this hole?





Still want to stick with the choice of word "nothing" Sarge?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 08:55:40 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 01:20:09 PM »
One of the reasons why I really enjoyed the #16 green at North Berwick is that you can bump your chip off the bank of the green.  It is creative and fun shot.
With the green shown here, I would think you would simply pitch it to the large upper shelf.
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 01:45:44 PM »
I have no problem with the bunkering, or the length of that hole (this green shows up at all lengths, pars however).

And that nonsense about watching the ball disappear and then come back up is some of the most overserved tripe to ever show up around here. If you travel to the course looking for that result, you'll likely leave disappointed.

The rest of your post is meaningless
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 01:59:50 PM »
Sarge,

If "nothing is good about the design" then the inverse is true: everything is bad about the design.

Support your statement.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »
Bogey,

I really enjoyed that book...and one needs to play the 12th at Tamarack CC before dismissing the template out of hand...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 03:04:00 PM »
Sarge,

If "nothing is good about the design" then the inverse is true: everything is bad about the design.

Support your statement.

My criticism is only directed to the biarritz putting surface, not the particular hole depicted. I was supporting Barney's comment
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 03:09:08 PM »
Sarge,

If "nothing is good about the design" then the inverse is true: everything is bad about the design.

Support your statement.

Sarge,

As you formulate your response, please be sure to indicate whether or not you have played Forsgate's Biarritz.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 03:38:03 PM »
The point is the Biarritz green fell out of favor because it did not work in most iterations. Nothing more, nothing less
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 03:44:13 PM »
Sarge,

If "nothing is good about the design" then the inverse is true: everything is bad about the design.

Support your statement.

My criticism is only directed to the biarritz putting surface, not the particular hole depicted. I was supporting Barney's comment

Fine, support Barney with a statement about what is bad about the design. And do tell what Biarritz holes you have played.


Because this statement, unsupported, may go down as the silliest architecture-related comment of the year:

"Because there is nothing good about the design"
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 04:21:33 PM by Bill Brightly »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »
The point is the Biarritz green fell out of favor because it did not work in most iterations. Nothing more, nothing less

Or maybe because Macdonald and Raynor died?

I have played several modern Biarritz variations that are fun.  Distance control and creative shotmaking are important tests of golf.  The Biarritz at Old Mac is fun because the tee is elevated and you can see everything happening.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 05:52:39 PM »
Sometimes in the world of consumerism a perfectly functional design falls out of favor for no more reason than it is ugly. The hole pictured is at the very least that.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 06:06:26 PM »
Barney, I agree that the pine trees should go. But Bill McBride is correct: Raynor died, the Great Depression hit, Macdonald and Banks died shortly after, and no new courses were built in the MacRaynor style for MANY years. I'll tell you this: as a good player and tough competitor, you probably would love having this as Hole 17 in match play. It is one tough par.

I am still waiting for the list of Sarge's Biarritz holes backing up the statement that "most iterations don't work."
 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 08:47:46 AM »
Well, since Sarge chooses not to even attempt to justify his statement that Biarritz green complexes are bad designs (my guess is he has never played one... he may have seen a few greens with a swale in the middle and called them Biarritz greens...) I will wrap this up.

The most common knock on Biarritz holes are that they are strange-looking. I agree that they are unusual holes; unlike almost any hole you will ever play. Macdonald designed the most natural looking such as the Creek Club shown above. Raynor built some great ones (Yale, Fox Chapel and Fishers Island) but some of his others look slightly more manufactured. The ones by Banks (Forsgate shown above) that I have seen might be fairly criticized as looking manufactured. But they are ALL really well-designed holes from a playability standpoint.

They are almost always one of the toughest pars on the course. ( I birdie my home course Biarritz maybe once or twice per summer, easily my lowest total on the course.) When the conditions are fast and firm (as they were when first built) these holes absolutely place an emphasis on the ground game. Clubs now maintaining the front section as putting surface promote fast and firm, thereby restoring the original design strategy. (Given the warm, dry Spring at my home course, even the best players can't fly the ball to the back section because it will not hold, and they are forced to think what club will land on the front section with enough pace to roll down and up the swale. This may be the ONLY time in the round that the "sticks" have to use the ground game.

The only reasoned criticism is the look. The design is superb in every other regard.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 09:02:04 AM by Bill Brightly »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 09:27:07 AM »

But they are ALL really well-designed holes from a playability standpoint.


Bill.

The only modern attempt I have played is at Erin Hills.  It seemed to have failed miserably and perhaps been changed since.  Given the current trend towards sustainability and the crunch on maintenance budgets they seem to fail at more than aesthetics.  I mean really, isn't at least 50% of the green wasted space?

Mike Hendren

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 09:51:38 AM »
I understand the perspective of Sarge and Barney.  Both are strong ball-strikers who can easily carry a long iron onto the back tier of a Biarritz and stop it there.  I suspect 90% of the participants on this site would approach the shot in the same manner.  As a long par three, perhaps the Biarritz has lost its relevance, if not its luster.  That said, I'd be reluctant to dismiss it entirely.  I think it has use in the modern game on two and three shots holes.   Bobby Weed used it well on a par five at Glen Mills (where I witnessed Redanman make a nice eagle) and I think it would work well on a short par four of 300-340 yards, ideally on a smaller scale.

While the cognoscenti wax poetic about seeing a ball disappear into and rise out of the swale and climb to the back tier, I think front pin locations are vastly underrated, where one can be disappointed to see the ball disappear into the swale after playing a short or mid-iron to a front pin.  Accordingly, I tend to dismiss those Biarritz greens where the front is maintained as fairway.  

Bottom line, the Biarritz is inherently a half par hole from the swale and an excellent test of lag putting.  

Bogey
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 09:54:09 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 10:22:18 AM »

But they are ALL really well-designed holes from a playability standpoint.


Bill.

The only modern attempt I have played is at Erin Hills.  It seemed to have failed miserably and perhaps been changed since.  Given the current trend towards sustainability and the crunch on maintenance budgets they seem to fail at more than aesthetics.  I mean really, isn't at least 50% of the green wasted space?

John:

The Biarritz green at Erin Hills (originally part of the 10th hole) is no more. Whether that makes the hole better or worse is up to one's judgements about that particular style of green. The 10th at EH was originally a par 5 (reachable) and my suspicion about that green is the original architects wanted to replicate the intent of an original par 3 Biarritz with a long, second-shot approach into the green. But -- no more. (A guess, but an educated one, given the other changes at EH: I think that green might be have been too "funky" and uncommon for the intent of EH, which is to host major championships, particularly the US Open. They also got rid of the Dell hole at EH.)

Bogey -- one of my few disappointments in reviewing Raynor's Blue Mound G&CC two years ago was that the Biarritz there has its front maintained at fairway length, not green length. In watching the long-hitting juniors play there (admittedly, when the course was pretty wet after showers the day before), not one approached the hole using the contours of the front part of the surface; all of them fired at the pin.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 10:34:30 AM »
The Biarritz at the Old White is among the favorites with the West Virginia Golf Association and the PGA Tour players who stop there annually.  The resort visitors support it as well.  Bills assertion that the death of Banks, Raynor and Macdonald and the onset of the depression is a theory I have a tendency to agree with.  Properly designed and constructed, the Biarritz is an architectural asset to many courses.

Lester 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Bogey's Photo Friday - Monday Edition
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 10:45:51 AM »
Michael,

Don't "dismiss" Biarritz holes with the front section as putting surface. The pin should NEVER be there for serious play. NEVER. (It is fine for outings and other days where you simply want to change things up. Our super puts the pin up there on Tuesdays to give the green a rest and the ladies like the break.)

So if you accept that the pin should ALWAYS be on the back tier, a front section maintained as putting surface is merely creating the fastest, firmest possible fairway. It has HUGE added benefits for the play of the hole.

The biggest change is the first bounce. At least 50% of the players can't hit it far enough to fly the ball to the back. So a "green-height" firm landing area will hit and roll out, especially when the shot is low, such as you would expect with drivers and 3-woods. The shorter grass means faster roll, again benefitting those playing for the roll out. I have seen this firsthand as we lowered our run up to fairway height 5 years ago. Many shorter hitters could never reach the green, the (soft) fairway just gobbled up their balls and they played the hole hoping for a chip and putt par, which really was fairly simple. Now, many of these same players are reaching the back section and I have to tell you it is fun to listen to them hoot and holler as the ball is rolling. However, balls hit a tad too soft are rolling all the way back down the swale, leaving a REALLY tough two-putt, where as they use to stop on the upslope when swale was fairway height.

I agree that many long hitters simply attempt to fly it to the back section. Given today's equipment, there are two things that must occur to "keep the hole relevant" for the best players. First, you need a black tee at 245-265 to take 3 iron and rescue clubs out of their hands. (Bahto says 270 would be perfect :) ) Secondly, the green must be really firm. The first bounce must be low and hard, not biting. I understand that these conditions are difficult to maintain, but when they can be accomplished, it absolutely changes how long hitters must play the hole.  Hackensack's is playing that way at the moment, and you'll just have to trust me that the "fly it to the pin" strategy has changed. (I hope weather conditions permit this to continue.)


I am not aware of too many biarritz-style greens on par 4 and 5's, but here is the conceptual problem: long hitters hit is so far that they will have mid to short irons on their approaches. (Par 5's make NO sense, after two shots the long hitter has some kind of wedge in his hands.) If you reduce the size of the green sections to defend against the long hitters, you unfairly penalize the rest of the players who have to run up their apprpoaches.

At least with par three holes you get to decide from where the long hitter must hit his approach, and presumably, that player is playing the appropriate tees.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 11:05:08 AM by Bill Brightly »