[Pete Blaisdell]

I have a question for the architects on GCA.

When you start clearing the course for your initial design and start cutting and removing debris for your center lines on your holes, do you only cut the areas to get a starting look but leave wiggle room to clear more as you go? Probably an uneducated and assine question on my part but I've always wondered how this works.

Followup question -What was the most difficult and the easiest courses to clear and shape ?

[Tom_Doak]

You have to leave some wiggle room.  The standard operating procedure is to cut a narrow swath down the fairway -- anywhere from 25 feet to 100 feet wide -- and then start flagging trees from there outward.  As you get more experienced, though, it starts getting easier to know whether the oak tree in front of you will be too much in the way or not.  Contractors appreciate not having to go back over the same hole three times.

Whether you actually have a lot of wiggle room or not depends on the nature of the routing and on how much space you have between holes.  If the holes are halfway close together, you can't move the hole to the right 75 feet to get around a big tree without encroaching on the next hole.

The only project I've done lately which was really cut out of the trees is the one we are tinkering with in Bordeaux.  Someone else had routed a course and done the first phase of clearing [30 meters wide] twenty years ago; the trick was to re-route the course in a manner that took advantage of as much of the completed clearing as possible, as we had limits on how much more we could do.

Probably the most difficult clearing job I've ever done is still Black Forest in Michigan ... there were a lot of good trees hidden in there and it was difficult to get a handle on where they all were.  GPS would be very useful for identifying exactly where the best trees are -- but you've got to be choosy about them or you'll just wind up having too many data points to be of any use.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pete,

Tom has it right, naturally.  Over time, I also require less and less wiggle room.  Usually, moving a hole to save one tree means you take out another one of equal value.  And the whole "save it" becomes less desireable.  How many times does an experienced gca have to save a nice tree, right in the line of play, before knowing that eventually, it has to come out?

That said, I do flag my tree corridors myself. One of the surpises of my career was learning that a well known gca told the contractor to go 100' either side of the centerline and clear, rather than putting any sort of artistic look on it.  I usually use long, graceful curving clearing lines, believing they look more natural and/or artistic.  From time to time, I find that I redo the entire thing, zigging when the plan shows zagging, etc. as the curvalinear tree lines just happen to fit better in some other configuration and DO save more signifigant trees.

 I have come to realize that the inside points sort of determine how wide the corridor looks.  I also note that oaks need wider clearing than tall, skinny pines, etc.  Also, if I know there is going to be some kind of cut or fill for whatever design reason, it rarely works out that I can change that to save a tree.

So, I agree with Tom, that over time, as you learn what works, you are more inclined to clear out to the limits, maybe saving trees within the last ten feet of the proposed clearing line, but the whole idea of sequential clearing to 25 feet, then 50 feet, then the 100-125 feet is kind of a waste of everyone's time.

[Pete Blaisdell]

Tom & Jeff
   Thank you for the explaination. Much appreciated..

[John Mayhugh]

Really interesting question.

Would be fun to see some photos from an initial (e.g 25 ft wide) clearing effort.  Those would look like some narrow fairways.

[Bill_McBride]

Really interesting question.

Would be fun to see some photos from an initial (e.g 25 ft wide) clearing effort.  Those would look like some narrow fairways.

Sort of like #18 tee shot at Augusta National? 

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't like how most tree clearing is done during golf course construction. Too often it looks like a row of trees get a red X or ribbon tied around them and then, take out everything on one side of the line and don't touch anything on the other. Whether that line is straight or curved, its as plain as day.

I like selective clearing better where some trees are removed and others left to be evaluated after you can see a little clearer. I like edges that are whittled away at and I also like the thinning to go into the native a little deeper. I think you can get all the room you need for the game without leaving a clear cut line.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

I always called the trees within the edges the "lone soldiers."  I agree that in the right places, leaving a few trees inside the main clearing line is great.  I have found they work better if near the inside points of any curves.  If I leave them inside an "outie" they just visually straighten the tree clearing line.

I also call for brushing at least as far as a small backhoe can reach to give that layered effect of opening, scattered trees, heavy trees.  Sadly, often the budget cuts call for this to be done "later, by the golf course crew" which often times doesn't happen.

[Joey Chase]

You have to leave some wiggle room.  The standard operating procedure is to cut a narrow swath down the fairway -- anywhere from 25 feet to 100 feet wide -- and then start flagging trees from there outward.  As you get more experienced, though, it starts getting easier to know whether the oak tree in front of you will be too much in the way or not.  Contractors appreciate not having to go back over the same hole three times.

Whether you actually have a lot of wiggle room or not depends on the nature of the routing and on how much space you have between holes.  If the holes are halfway close together, you can't move the hole to the right 75 feet to get around a big tree without encroaching on the next hole.

The only project I've done lately which was really cut out of the trees is the one we are tinkering with in Bordeaux.  Someone else had routed a course and done the first phase of clearing [30 meters wide] twenty years ago; the trick was to re-route the course in a manner that took advantage of as much of the completed clearing as possible, as we had limits on how much more we could do.

Probably the most difficult clearing job I've ever done is still Black Forest in Michigan ... there were a lot of good trees hidden in there and it was difficult to get a handle on where they all were.  GPS would be very useful for identifying exactly where the best trees are -- but you've got to be choosy about them or you'll just wind up having too many data points to be of any use.

Tom,
Where exactly is the project in Bordeaux?  My wife is from the area and I am looking for a good reason to visit my in-laws!  Is it still in the clearing phases of the project or has more work begun? 

[Mike Nuzzo]

I also call for brushing at least as far as a small backhoe can reach to give that layered effect of opening, scattered trees, heavy trees.  Sadly, often the budget cuts call for this to be done "later, by the golf course crew" which often times doesn't happen.

One of the many benefits of working with Don was his brushing was deeper than the golf hole and included all the crummy trees.
What a difference it made on 16 & 17.

[Tom_Doak]

You have to leave some wiggle room.  The standard operating procedure is to cut a narrow swath down the fairway -- anywhere from 25 feet to 100 feet wide -- and then start flagging trees from there outward.  As you get more experienced, though, it starts getting easier to know whether the oak tree in front of you will be too much in the way or not.  Contractors appreciate not having to go back over the same hole three times.

Whether you actually have a lot of wiggle room or not depends on the nature of the routing and on how much space you have between holes.  If the holes are halfway close together, you can't move the hole to the right 75 feet to get around a big tree without encroaching on the next hole.

The only project I've done lately which was really cut out of the trees is the one we are tinkering with in Bordeaux.  Someone else had routed a course and done the first phase of clearing [30 meters wide] twenty years ago; the trick was to re-route the course in a manner that took advantage of as much of the completed clearing as possible, as we had limits on how much more we could do.

Probably the most difficult clearing job I've ever done is still Black Forest in Michigan ... there were a lot of good trees hidden in there and it was difficult to get a handle on where they all were.  GPS would be very useful for identifying exactly where the best trees are -- but you've got to be choosy about them or you'll just wind up having too many data points to be of any use.

Tom,
Where exactly is the project in Bordeaux?  My wife is from the area and I am looking for a good reason to visit my in-laws!  Is it still in the clearing phases of the project or has more work begun? 

Joey:

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

[Tom_Doak]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, it pays to understand the types of trees you are clearing.  Some species don't do so well when they are thurst from the safety of woods to the edge of a new clearing.  Our course in Maryland, Beechtree, got its name because we found so many beautiful beeches to save in the clearing process ... but they started dying from exposure a couple of years after the course opened.  [Maybe it was an omen.]

[John Mayhugh]

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

This sounds like a considerably more enticing location than Hainan, at least for me.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, it pays to understand the types of trees you are clearing.  Some species don't do so well when they are thurst from the safety of woods to the edge of a new clearing.  Our course in Maryland, Beechtree, got its name because we found so many beautiful beeches to save in the clearing process ... but they started dying from exposure a couple of years after the course opened.  [Maybe it was an omen.]

When we cleared around the edges of Wolf Point we tried to highlight some Red Oaks. Most of the trees there are Texas Live oaks and they seem to be very tough, but the Red Oaks didn't handle any disturbance well at all and almost everyone that we got near has died. I should have known as I spent the first 3 months on the project in a 110 inch tree spade moving trees and every red oak I moved died almost instantly. I guess there is a reason I've only see this particular tree in the wild.

[Joey Chase]

You have to leave some wiggle room.  The standard operating procedure is to cut a narrow swath down the fairway -- anywhere from 25 feet to 100 feet wide -- and then start flagging trees from there outward.  As you get more experienced, though, it starts getting easier to know whether the oak tree in front of you will be too much in the way or not.  Contractors appreciate not having to go back over the same hole three times.

Whether you actually have a lot of wiggle room or not depends on the nature of the routing and on how much space you have between holes.  If the holes are halfway close together, you can't move the hole to the right 75 feet to get around a big tree without encroaching on the next hole.

The only project I've done lately which was really cut out of the trees is the one we are tinkering with in Bordeaux.  Someone else had routed a course and done the first phase of clearing [30 meters wide] twenty years ago; the trick was to re-route the course in a manner that took advantage of as much of the completed clearing as possible, as we had limits on how much more we could do.

Probably the most difficult clearing job I've ever done is still Black Forest in Michigan ... there were a lot of good trees hidden in there and it was difficult to get a handle on where they all were.  GPS would be very useful for identifying exactly where the best trees are -- but you've got to be choosy about them or you'll just wind up having too many data points to be of any use.

Tom,
Where exactly is the project in Bordeaux?  My wife is from the area and I am looking for a good reason to visit my in-laws!  Is it still in the clearing phases of the project or has more work begun? 

Joey:

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

That's great to hear!  I will be down that way this summer and I'll try to sneak out there.  I had heard about a project there but didn't know the architect.  St. Emilion is a cool little town with great wine.  One of the best areas around Bordeaux to visit! 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Joey:

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

What were the environmental constraints like over there - were they worse than in the US?

[Tom_Doak]

St. Emilion is a cool little town with great wine.  One of the best areas around Bordeaux to visit! 

Understatement of the day.  It's a beautiful town, and home to some of the world's most famous vineyards.

[Tom_Doak]

Joey:

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

What were the environmental constraints like over there - were they worse than in the US?

Wayne:

Both of our planned projects in Europe [the other is near Madrid] were in planning for 15-20 years by various different architects, before they finally got their permits in hand.  It's "a long and winding road" to get permits in Europe, though I don't know if the environmental rules are really any different.  In Bordeaux, the biggest constraint is that you aren't allowed to use wells for an irrigation source -- you have to store rainwater and use that as your sole irrigation source.  They have the same rule for all the vineyards, which is why some vintage years are better than others!  I don't know if you could find water if you did dig a well, presumably not much.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, it pays to understand the types of trees you are clearing.  Some species don't do so well when they are thurst from the safety of woods to the edge of a new clearing.  Our course in Maryland, Beechtree, got its name because we found so many beautiful beeches to save in the clearing process ... but they started dying from exposure a couple of years after the course opened.  [Maybe it was an omen.]

It was a great track however, always enjoyed a round there.

[paul cowley]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, it pays to understand the types of trees you are clearing.  Some species don't do so well when they are thurst from the safety of woods to the edge of a new clearing.  Our course in Maryland, Beechtree, got its name because we found so many beautiful beeches to save in the clearing process ... but they started dying from exposure a couple of years after the course opened.  [Maybe it was an omen.]

I had the same problem at Barefoot Landing in N Myrtle Beach. I saved a small group of beeches on the inside of a dogleg...primarily because a black bear had climbed one of the larger ones and the claw marks on the beech bark were plain as day. I was pleased to see a few month later that the bear was doing well, as evidenced by her tracks and those of her two cubs as the wandered through the greens mix of an adjacent green. Two years later both the bear and the trees were gone...

I always flag every fairway myself (sometimes with assistance). Some of the flat, heavy woods of the SE can be choked with underbrush and wetlands (not to mention snake, tick and chigger filled), so it can be the first part of pulling back a curtain seen only previously from topos and spot checking forays. Its one of my favorite things to do, partially because it means we're finally rolling, but primarily because of the excitement that comes from the exploration and discovery of new places...and the design options that start to flow as a consequence.

[Joey Chase]

Joey:

It's a bit to the east of St. Emilion ... the project will be called St. Emilion Golf Club.  The clearing is completed and we've done a little bit of shaping.  More to do this summer, I think.  There are some really beautiful trees there!

What were the environmental constraints like over there - were they worse than in the US?

Wayne:

Both of our planned projects in Europe [the other is near Madrid] were in planning for 15-20 years by various different architects, before they finally got their permits in hand.  It's "a long and winding road" to get permits in Europe, though I don't know if the environmental rules are really any different.  In Bordeaux, the biggest constraint is that you aren't allowed to use wells for an irrigation source -- you have to store rainwater and use that as your sole irrigation source.  They have the same rule for all the vineyards, which is why some vintage years are better than others!  I don't know if you could find water if you did dig a well, presumably not much.

Roger Rulewich has had a project in planning for 14 years in the Andalucia region of Spain that may never reach the ground as a result of all of the restrictions.  Kinda sad as it would've been a great project.  While I still worked for him, we built a course in Portugal that had taken 10 years to plan and get permitted.  I think the restrictions can be suffocating, depending on the local authorities interest in the project.  France seems to be very much this way, as I am finding out every day!

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