[Morgan Clawson]

The brilliance of Augusta National's greens were on full display this week.

The incredible contouring and pin positions delivered endless drama and reward for brilliantly executed shots.

Is there a course in major championship golf (past or present) with greens that come remotely close to the greatness of Augusta National's?

[JESII]

I would imagine Oakmont and St. Andrews compare favorably.

[Sam Morrow]

What about Oakland Hills or Pinehurst?

[Morgan Clawson]

Pinehurst requires great precision.  But I don't think they have anything as intriguing as 2, 13, and 16 to name a few.

[Terry Lavin]

No argument from me.

[Sam Morrow]

I'm gonna buy that boy a pink shafted driver after we eat some redneck food washed down with sweet tea.

When is your next election, with that attitude your gonna be a Republican.

[Sven Nilsen]

Loved how that pin position on 7 fooled just about everyone.  They kept discussing the influence of Rae's Creek on that particular hole location, and sure enough just about every putt drifted off towards the creek.

[David_Tepper]

I am assuming the green speeds are a little bit slower for the members.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Loved how that pin position on 7 fooled just about everyone.  

They kept discussing the influence of Rae's Creek on that particular hole location, and sure enough just about every putt drifted off towards the creek.

Sven,

Referencing Rae's Creek, as an influence on # 7 has to be one of the most absurd comments about ANGC.

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

I guess you could say the same thing about # 2 green, # 3 green, # 9 green and # 18 green.

GRAVITY, not Rae's Creek is the influential force.

Morgan,

They are certainly wonderful greens, especially in the context of the individual holes that contains them.

[Sven Nilsen]

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

Great suggestion.  I'm starting with you.

[Sean_A]

Loved how that pin position on 7 fooled just about everyone.  

They kept discussing the influence of Rae's Creek on that particular hole location, and sure enough just about every putt drifted off towards the creek.

Sven,

Referencing Rae's Creek, as an influence on # 7 has to be one of the most absurd comments about ANGC.

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

I guess you could say the same thing about # 2 green, # 3 green, # 9 green and # 18 green.

GRAVITY, not Rae's Creek is the influential force.

Morgan,

They are certainly wonderful greens, especially in the context of the individual holes that contains them.

Pat

What do you think about the green sites as a set?  There seems to be a good variety of green sites, but there are a lot of steeply uphill approaches.  Thoughts?

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Interesting article on the mysteries of the greens:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/robhodgetts/2012/04/the_mysterious_raes_creek.html

[George Pazin]

Pat

What do you think about the green sites as a set?  There seems to be a good variety of green sites, but there are a lot of steeply uphill approaches.  Thoughts?

Ciao

Isn't 18 the only steeply uphill one on the back 9?

[Greg Tallman]

Loved how that pin position on 7 fooled just about everyone.  

They kept discussing the influence of Rae's Creek on that particular hole location, and sure enough just about every putt drifted off towards the creek.

Sven,

Referencing Rae's Creek, as an influence on # 7 has to be one of the most absurd comments about ANGC.

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

I guess you could say the same thing about # 2 green, # 3 green, # 9 green and # 18 green.

GRAVITY, not Rae's Creek is the influential force.

Pat, you do realize, don't you, that you're basically saying the same thing.  Unless ANGC has somehow engineered a way for the water on their property to not find its own level, gravity is the reason that Rae's Creek is where Rae's Creek is .... 

So every inch of the property slopes toward the creek? INteresting property!

[Tim_Cronin]

Loved how that pin position on 7 fooled just about everyone.  

They kept discussing the influence of Rae's Creek on that particular hole location, and sure enough just about every putt drifted off towards the creek.

Sven,

Referencing Rae's Creek, as an influence on # 7 has to be one of the most absurd comments about ANGC.

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

I guess you could say the same thing about # 2 green, # 3 green, # 9 green and # 18 green.

GRAVITY, not Rae's Creek is the influential force.

Pat, you do realize, don't you, that you're basically saying the same thing.  Unless ANGC has somehow engineered a way for the water on their property to not find its own level, gravity is the reason that Rae's Creek is where Rae's Creek is .... 

So every inch of the property slopes toward the creek? INteresting property!

Everything on the western side of the clubhouse does, eventually. The ridge that the clubhouse sits on is 170 feet or so above Rae's Creek. The low point runs from behind 11 green to 13 green. Maybe it should have been called Amen Cellar.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don't listen, and take as The Gospel, everything that anyone and everyone says about the golf course at ANGC.

Great suggestion.  I'm starting with you.

That's been obvious with every post.

But, ask yourself this question, in all the years that you've been watching the Masters, have you ever heard anyone reference Rae's Creek as influencing putts/chips/approaches/recoveries on # 7 green ?

Especially since the green is built well above grade

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

What do you think about the green sites as a set? 

I think they're marvelous.

And, you have to view them, not just from play from the Masters tees, but from the perspective of play from the Members tees.

There seems to be a good variety of green sites, but there are a lot of steeply uphill approaches. 


Not really.
# 1 is level, # 2 downhill, # 3 slightly uphill, # 4 downhill, # 5 level, # 6 downhill, # 7 slightly uphill, # 8 level, # 9 uphill, # 10, unique, downhill to an elevated green, # 11 downhill, # 12 level, # 13 pretty level althought it could be slightly up or downhill, # 14 level to slightly uphill, # 15 downhill, # 16 level, # 17 level, # 18 uphill.

Thoughts?

Sean, I don't think there's any repetition in the putting surfaces, most of which tend to follow the terrain.
There are exceptions, but most of them aren't the originals.

Hole location is probably more critical on those greens than most others.

It's not just getting on the wrong side of the hole on those greens, but, the approach to get it on the right side of the hole.
Take # 15 yesterday.
That hole location eliminated a big draw into that green because if you aim right, and leave it there, or block it, your chances of recovery are very slim.

Likewise, with the hole located far left on Saturday, knowing that you'd like to be below the hole putting up to it, who has the balls or lack of grey matter to attempt to hit their approach under the hole.

So, it's not just the challenges you face ON the putting surface, it's the challenges you face, mentally and physically trying to approach the putting surfaces.

You may remember, when Tiger won one year and never hit more than a 7 iron into any par 4, and I think he hit a couple of sand wedges, including on # 15, well, that's a HUGE advantage.  I'll take a 9-iron approach over a 3-iron approach every day.  Hitting shorter clubs into those greens takes some of the fear factor out and boosts one's confidence.

As truly spectacular as the Masters telecast is, you still can't gain the proper perspective on those putting surfaces.

The slope on # 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 15 and 18, when combined with the contouring/slope on # 5, 6, 7, 13, 14, 16 is incredible.
And, the subtle to not so subtle undulations on # 1, 8 and 17 make for great diversity.

# 11 and # 12 are probably the most benign greens, but, flanked with water, many golfers face longer putts than they'd like.

Hope that helps

[Sven Nilsen]

From the article I posted above, this is Larry Mize:

"On the seventh, going from right to left, Rae's Creek can hold up putts more than you think. I've missed putts on the high side there many times. Even though you know it, it's hard to play it."

During this year's coverage when they showed the last few groups coming through 7, the commentators repeatedly referenced Rae's Creek when discussing how the players misread the putts to the front right hole location.  When Mickelson came though, they expected him to have the local knowledge necessary to find the right line.  Even Phil missed.

Click the link and read the article.  I'm willing to listen to any comments you have on the author's take and the quotes.  

Edit:  The article also discusses how Graeme McDowell marks his yardage book with a red dot on every hole to indicate the direction of the 12th hole (the low point on the property).  You can see the same marks in Kevin Streelman's yardage book, found here: 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/464463-kevin-streelmans-yardage-book-from-the-2011-masters

I don't think anyone was discussing Rae's Creek as anything more than a reference for the natural drainage patterns on the property. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

From the article I posted above, this is Larry Mize:

"On the seventh, going from right to left, Rae's Creek can hold up putts more than you think.
I've missed putts on the high side there many times. Even though you know it, it's hard to play it."

I'd suggest that this is a misquote, or just one of the dumbest references one could make

# 7 green sits about 80 feet above and over a quarter of a mile from Rae's Creek.

In addition, it's not the original green, which was at grade, it's an artificially constructed green well above grade, hence, Rae's Creek can have NO influence over balls on the putting surface.  But, you keep reading and repeating what others say, without any ability to filter or discern whether their statements are accurate or inaccurate.

Maybe Brad Klein or someone else familiar with the golf course will chime in and reverify that any reference to Rae's Creek, when discussing putting influences on # 7 green, is totally absurd.
 
Going from right to left is going back toward the clubhouse which is uphill, hence, GRAVITY and not Rae's Creek is the sole influence.

During this year's coverage when they showed the last few groups coming through 7, the commentators repeatedly referenced Rae's Creek when discussing how the players misread the putts to the front right hole location.  

Sven, I'll make this as simple as I can for you.
The commentators don't know what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to stating that Rae's Creek influences putts on # 7 green.
It's PURE HYPERBOLE, MEDIA SCHMALTZ
But, you love to believe sources and statements that you yourself can't verify.
Like a parrot, you keep repeating comments without knowing what you're talking about.
I know Peter Kostis, I've played golf with and I like Peter Kostis.  We've had a number of debates about "the ball"
He taught me one of the best shots I know from an uphill lie in a bunker.
But, he's all wet on this one.


When Mickelson came though, they expected him to have the local knowledge necessary to find the right line.  Even Phil missed.
So what, just because he missed it doesn't mean he misread it.

"They" were also predicting that Tiger would win.
When that couldn't happen, "they" were predicting that Mickelson would win.
But, that didn't happen either.
Stop relying on "they/them"

You have NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ANGC.
YET, YOU POST QUOTES/LINKS, POSTURING THOSE QUOTES/LINKS AS THE GOSPEL.

YOU'RE SO WRONG ON # 7 THAT IT'S GONE BEYOND ABSURD TO PATHETIC.

Ask yourself, how can an artificial green, constructed well above grade be influenced by a creek a quarter of a mile away.
It's the most absurd, insane premise I've heard of in years.

Click the link and read the article.  I'm willing to listen to any comments you have on the author's take and the quotes.  

I'm not interested in the link, the author or the article.
# 7 green is an artificial green constructed above grade a quarter of a mile away from Rae's Creek.
Rae's Creek has absolutely NO INFLUENCE OVER PUTTS ON # 7 GREEN.
ONLY A JACKASS WOULD THINK SO.


Edit:  The article also discusses how Graeme McDowell marks his yardage book with a red dot on every hole to indicate the direction of the 12th hole (the low point on the property).  You can see the same marks in Kevin Streelman's yardage book, found here: 

That's irrelevant in terms of discussing influences on putts on the 7th green.


http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/464463-kevin-streelmans-yardage-book-from-the-2011-masters

I don't think anyone was discussing Rae's Creek as anything more than a reference for the natural drainage patterns on the property. 
Then reread what you've posted.
You indicated and supported the idiotic notion that Rae's Creek influenceS putts on # 7 green and that's one of the most absurd, dumbest, idiotic comments I've ever heard regarding ANGC.

[Doug Siebert]

The best thing about those greens is how much the ball rolls after landing, and the ability to use the slopes to your advantage (or have them used against you to your detriment)  Most pro tournaments are boring to watch precisely because the greens are boring.  Sure, they stimp at some insane pace but its meaningless because they are so flat.  Its nice to see putts like those on #9 where plays aim 90* away from the hole and the putt breaks as much as it is long.  Playing on one of those older courses with greens that slope strongly back to front, I'm used to that and like seeing the pros challenged by it, rather than hitting 40 foot putts that barely break a foot as is too often the case on many of the boring stadium courses they play week to week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

This is why I'm so opposed to flattening greens for the sake of higher speeds.

Unfortunately, courses that host USGA Opens and PGA championships seem all to willing to disfigure their greens, depriving them of their intended character and play.

[Sven Nilsen]

No offense Pat, but I'll take Larry Mize's word on the subject over yours.

Jack discussed it with regards to his putt on 17 in 1986, one of the closest greens to the 7th.  Should I disregard that statement as well?

Tour professionals mark the pictures of each green in their yardage book with the direction of the 12th hole and Rae's Creek.  Why would they do so?

Nick Faldo believes it can effect putts on the first green, perhaps the farthest point on the course from the 12th.  As a two time champion, he might be on to something.

Mickelson has a great quote discussing reads on these greens.  He says you have to be able to visualize what the ball will do based on memory, not based on the contours that you see.

If the gospel of Augusta were to be written, I'd be pretty happy with Larry, Jack, Nick and Phil as the disciples.  As far as I know, you haven't been beatified as the owner of a green champions jacket just yet.
 
  

[Patrick_Mucci]

No offense Pat, but I'll take Larry Mize's word on the subject over yours.

Then you're a fool on this issue.

All you do is regurgitate other's remarks without analyzing them.
The problem is, you can't analyze them because you have no personal data base to mine.

Jack discussed it with regards to his putt on 17 in 1986, one of the closest greens to the 7th.  Should I disregard that statement as well?

I know that you want to deflect the issue, but, we're talking about the 7th green, a totally artificial green constructed well above grade.
We're talking about th

Tour professionals mark the pictures of each green in their yardage book with the direction of the 12th hole and Rae's Creek.  
Why would they do so?

Did Bubba ?

Nick Faldo believes it can effect putts on the first green, perhaps the farthest point on the course from the 12th.  As a two time champion, he might be on to something.

NO, he's NOT, he's merely "fluffing" gulible viewers like yourself

Mickelson has a great quote discussing reads on these greens.  
He says you have to be able to visualize what the ball will do based on memory, not based on the contours that you see.
If that was the case, why did Phil and his caddy take great pains to read/see/visualize his putts.

Your problem is that you indiscriminately believe everything you read.
And worse, you try to pawn it off as The Gospel.

Most of it is unadulterated rubbish, meant for the uninformed, such as yourself.

If the gospel of Augusta were to be written, I'd be pretty happy with Larry, Jack, Nick and Phil as the disciples.

Another attempt to deflect the focus.

You're so wrong about # 7 green that it's comical.

You know nothing about ANGC based upon personal observation.

Everything you know is based upon third party or fourth or fifth party hearsay.
Depends on what issue.

I have my doubts as to whether Larry even knows that the 7th green isn't the original green or who rebuilt it and when.
 

As far as I know, you haven't been beatified as the owner of a green champions jacket just yet.

The issue isn't whether I know more about ANGC's architecture than Larry, Jack, Nick or Phil, it's whether I know more about ANGC's architecture than you, and I do.

Your support of the statement that putts on # 7 green are influenced by Rae's Creek is another example of blind ignorance, absent any personal frame of reference.

Plain and simple, you don't know what you're talking about and have no context in which to judge my statements or responses, choosing instead to parrot quotes from others.  Quotes which are so wildly absurd that only someone totally unfamiliar with ANGC would accept them as the Gospel.

Pretty soon you'll be telling us that Washington Road is affected by Rae's Creek.

 

[Bill Gayne]

The greens are the reason that there are so few first time winners and rarely the winner has missed the cut in the previous year. Ben Crenshaw is a great putter and reader of greens and he had enough respect for the subtle nuances of the greens to take a club caddie. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

There seems to be a great tradition at Augusta of the older players passing down their years of knowledge while playing practice rounds with the newbies.  Here's Tiger's description:

"I was in their ear," Woods says of playing practice rounds with Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Seve Ballesteros, Jose Maria Olazabal, Fred Couples, Greg Norman and Nick Price. "To listen to those guys talk about how to play what shot, to what flag, with what spin, was amazing to hear. The key to playing the Masters, I tell all the guys who are going up there for their first time or first couple times, is to play practice rounds with a guy who knows how to play the course.

"And then you pick their brains."

Gary Woodland did the same thing this past week with Tom Watson.  I'm sure there were a few old vets who didn't want to share, but the wealth of knowledge passed down has made for some exciting golf.

Sven

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