What you can't see on TV is how really hard the

[Patrick_Mucci]

Approach shot can be on #  13 when you lay up,  especially when the hole is cut close to the creek.

To the right of the green the land slopes down, toward the creek, making that pitch very, very difficult.

Back in the extended DZ, as you approach the green, the Prefered flight is a fade, so that you can use the slope of the green and stay away from the creek, but try hitting a fade off of a fairway with an 11 degree slope.

Hence a layup is often called for.

But, WHERE do you lay up to ?

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

And isn't 15 similarly difficult? Two genius half-par holes -- risk with both going for it, and laying up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

And isn't 15 similarly difficult? Two genius half-par holes -- risk with both going for it, and laying up.

Phil,

The devilish, really insidious aspect of laying up on # 15 is that you want to get close to the green, but the closer you get the lower you get and the fairway slopes down to the water, leaving you a very dicey shot.

The further back you lay up, the longer the shot and the more difficult the visual.

From further back, the green doesn't offer much of a profile, very little in the way of definition.

There's a lot of unseen genius in the design of ANGC, and unfortunately the cameras hide most of it

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

Also missing from the telecasts is how the 13th fairway really flattens out the closer one flirts with the creek left. Bailing out to the right provides plenty of fairway, but an uneven lie for those wanting to go for the green in two, and the angle into the green is tougher. Flirting with the creek left off the tee provides a much more level lie, and a much better angle into that green (in a sense, it "deepens" the green because of the angle into it).Watch tapes of Jack's famous '86 back nine charge, and he hit his approach into 13 from a lie in the fairway not 10 yards from the creek. Two of my favorite holes in all of golf.

[Morgan Clawson]

Most of the camera shots of the 12th hole are from an elevated perch behind the tee box.

The depth of the green looks pretty shallow from that view point.

There was a quick camera shot today from right behind one of the players.

From ground level the depth of the green looks incredibly shallow.

Pat - your thoughts please...

[Ben Sims]

A couple of comments.

--Phil's comments are fairly well formulated.  It's basically a NASCAR style left turn on 13 fairway, but relatively flat near the Rae's Creek tributary.  My preferred layup on 13 would be a flat spot on the high right of the fairway at 90-100 yds.  It's the flattest area in the fairway from 100 and in and is a much better angle for nearly all pins.  But Pat is right, the 13 layup is delicate and it is astounding that it is even attemped by some.  If you've got 200-210 left, it should be green light, because it's just as much a crapshoot from 90 as 220. 

--12 green is two things.  Flat and skinny.  It's has the least contour and almost the least tilt of any green on the course.  But it is strinkingly small.  Fred Couples' play of the hole today is so much better than most know.

--15 is almost the same as  13 in that the layup is so tough with regard to position.  Funny thing about 15 is that I think the best area to approach the green is actually the crosswalk.  That leaves about 130.  I'll take a full shoit with a short iron or wedge over a pitch anyday on that hole.

[Bill Gayne]

What suprised me about the 13th green is the shape and angle of the green. The TV view is from a stationary camera to the right of the green which is very different from what the players see from the fairway.

[Scott Stambaugh]

I sat in the grandstand above #13 green/#14 tee for a little while yesterday and watched a few guys play their second shot toward #14 tee, about front-of-the-green-creek-high, right side.  It's all short grass over there, all the way to the tee, and fairly flat.  The hole location was back rightish, an easy low skipper/one hop and stop for these guys.  Zack Johnson dropped some exrta balls and nearly holed two of them.

Except for an extreme front hole location, this seemed like a pretty good spot to bailout and have a relatively easy third shot (for those guys anyway...)

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

The longer you play the "layup" up the right side, the more you risk bringing the creek into play on your second.

Remember, you're playing off an 11 degree hook lie.

Tough to hit a longer iron up that alleyway without fear of turning it over a little, where it can catch the slope leading into the creek

[Ryan DeMay]

I sat in the grandstand above #13 green/#14 tee for a little while yesterday and watched a few guys play their second shot toward #14 tee, about front-of-the-green-creek-high, right side.  It's all short grass over there, all the way to the tee, and fairly flat.  The hole location was back rightish, an easy low skipper/one hop and stop for these guys.  Zack Johnson dropped some exrta balls and nearly holed two of them.

Except for an extreme front hole location, this seemed like a pretty good spot to bailout and have a relatively easy third shot (for those guys anyway...)

Scott

Scott,

I saw the same thing you did on Monday and Tuesday there where guys were giving themselves a favorable angle into the green for their third shot from approximately the spot in the photo below.




Pat,

Below are a few photos of Sergio Garcia and Luke Donald playing their second shots on Tuesday.  Donald had about 175 yards to the front edge and ended up deep and right.  The photo of Donald really illustrates what you mentioned about the lie for a player on the right side of the fairway.  In Sergio's case he had maybe 10 fewer yards to the green but, opted to lay up 25 yards short of the creek on the left side.  While Sergio definitely had a better lie, he also was the one who decided on the more conservative route to the green.






Also, here is another low angle shot of Luke Donald standing on the front of edge of the green to give some indication of the slope from back to front there.




Morgan,

The photo below comes from an official tournament yardage guide from last year's event.  It certainly doesn't tell you how it "feels" back on 12 green but, it at least quantifies the size of the target.



The complete yardage guide from last year can be found here:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/464463-kevin-streelmans-yardage-book-from-the-2011-masters

[Mike Hendren]

A couple of years ago I watched a lot of play at 13 in person.  The hole location was on the extreme left side of the back plateau.  Players laid up way right and generally attempted a low running pitch up the small incline.  With Jack's swale behind the hole, most left their pitch well short, leaving 15 feet or so uphill for their birdie.  Very few made that putt. Norman was in contention on Friday but doubled there after his agressive pitch went over the green with no chance to get the next shot close.

Ironically, players going directly at the hole with their second shot invariably wound up with shorter eagle putts than the lay-ups had for their birdies.  There were as many threes there as fours as a result. 

Patrick's premise is spot on.

Bogey

[Tim Gavrich]

It seems the proper layup changes each day with the pin position on 13.  Yesterday, it would seem that the best spot to layup to is the extreme left side at the end of the fairway.  Of course, that spot seemed to be protected by the creek on 2 1/2-3 sides, complicating things and actually turning the layup into a risk shot.  Love it.

Would pros who want to layup be better served laying up farther back, say, to 85-100 yards? Are they too prideful to hit such a short second shot or is it legitimately not the best idea?

I also love the fact that the stream around the green is so shallow that it's conceivable to be able to hit out of it.  Alvaro Quiros hit an absurdly good shot to seven feet and then missed the birdie putt.  What a great golf hole.

[Dan Herrmann]

Another pitch for watching the 3D telecast. Patrick is right - #13 looks downright scary when you see its slopes in 3D.

[William_G]

A couple of comments.

--Phil's comments are fairly well formulated.  It's basically a NASCAR style left turn on 13 fairway, but relatively flat near the Rae's Creek tributary.  My preferred layup on 13 would be a flat spot on the high right of the fairway at 90-100 yds.  It's the flattest area in the fairway from 100 and in and is a much better angle for nearly all pins.  But Pat is right, the 13 layup is delicate and it is astounding that it is even attemped by some.  If you've got 200-210 left, it should be green light, because it's just as much a crapshoot from 90 as 220. 

--12 green is two things.  Flat and skinny.  It's has the least contour and almost the least tilt of any green on the course.  But it is strinkingly small.  Fred Couples' play of the hole today is so much better than most know.

--15 is almost the same as  13 in that the layup is so tough with regard to position.  Funny thing about 15 is that I think the best area to approach the green is actually the crosswalk.  That leaves about 130.  I'll take a full shoit with a short iron or wedge over a pitch anyday on that hole.

Ben,

On 15 if you watch the the 3rd shot, they are predomoinantly from a shelf on the left side of the fairway. The players all know it is there, but is an inperceptible part of the slope at about 80 yards out.

Saw it in my trips to the tournament and see it now on TV, when forced to lay-up, most players go there, Tiger, Cabrera...

Could be a shelf by design so the average members have a better chance on their 3rd.

Thanks

[George Pazin]

Some screen shots from today to illustrate:

Sean O'Hair's 2nd on 13


He laid up to here:

(note the little white blurry ball behind him - someone bombed it around the corner while he was standing over the ball)

Verplank laid up to here, looks a little flatter:


Incidentally, both hit it to about 10 feet - Verplank's ball actually struck O'Hair's. The hole location was left side, away from the creek.

Hole location: (that's Kevin Chapell chipping from a mile away after his 2nd shot)

[Ben Sims]

A couple of comments.

--Phil's comments are fairly well formulated.  It's basically a NASCAR style left turn on 13 fairway, but relatively flat near the Rae's Creek tributary.  My preferred layup on 13 would be a flat spot on the high right of the fairway at 90-100 yds.  It's the flattest area in the fairway from 100 and in and is a much better angle for nearly all pins.  But Pat is right, the 13 layup is delicate and it is astounding that it is even attemped by some.  If you've got 200-210 left, it should be green light, because it's just as much a crapshoot from 90 as 220. 

--12 green is two things.  Flat and skinny.  It's has the least contour and almost the least tilt of any green on the course.  But it is strinkingly small.  Fred Couples' play of the hole today is so much better than most know.

--15 is almost the same as  13 in that the layup is so tough with regard to position.  Funny thing about 15 is that I think the best area to approach the green is actually the crosswalk.  That leaves about 130.  I'll take a full shoit with a short iron or wedge over a pitch anyday on that hole.

Ben,

On 15 if you watch the the 3rd shot, they are predomoinantly from a shelf on the left side of the fairway. The players all know it is there, but is an inperceptible part of the slope at about 80 yards out.

Saw it in my trips to the tournament and see it now on TV, when forced to lay-up, most players go there, Tiger, Cabrera...

Could be a shelf by design so the average members have a better chance on their 3rd.

Thanks

William,

It's not imperceptable at all really.  On my seventh trip or so this week from tee to green, when you're down there standing on it, it's pretty obvious as to its quality as an area to layup from.  However, getting there is another matter.  It's very risky getting to the "shelf" you speak of down and left about 50-70 out.  Based on the divot pattern this year, the guys are trying to get to about 90 out in the center with their second and taking their chances with the lie.

[William_G]

Ben,

Not imperceptable to us anyway.

Thanks

[Steve Strasheim]

Been watching the live coverage on masters.com today.

Not 3D, but a much better view of the angles and slopes.

[Ronald Montesano]

Would the longer layup leave on #15 remove unneeded spin? I would find that to be a + for a pro golfer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It seems the proper layup changes each day with the pin position on 13. 

Tim,

You're so right.

It's really quite clever how dramatically hole location impacts tactical thinking and play when contemplating a lay-up on this hole.

The cant on the upper tier is lost in the telecast as are the slopes short and right of the green.

When you factor in the topography short and right of the green, with the winding serpentine nature of the creek, the internal contouring of the putting surface with the terrain left and over the green, a hole that looks so simplistic, becomes rather complex when a golfer, playing medal play, doesn't go for the green in two.



 Yesterday, it would seem that the best spot to layup to is the extreme left side at the end of the fairway.  Of course, that spot seemed to be protected by the creek on 2 1/2-3 sides, complicating things and actually turning the layup into a risk shot.  Love it.

Would pros who want to layup be better served laying up farther back, say, to 85-100 yards? Are they too prideful to hit such a short second shot or is it legitimately not the best idea?

I also love the fact that the stream around the green is so shallow that it's conceivable to be able to hit out of it.  Alvaro Quiros hit an absurdly good shot to seven feet and then missed the birdie putt.  What a great golf hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would the longer layup leave on #15 remove unneeded spin? I would find that to be a + for a pro golfer.

Ron,

The problem is that the further you lay back the more difficult the approach is with longer clubs.

The green is shallow and has a very low visual profile.

Having a high profile are the surrounding water features, the severe slope of the green and the knowledge that if you miss the green long, left or right that you can have a really treacherous recovery to the green depending on hole location.

I couldn't believe Phil's recovery shot.  Not necessarily the physical properties of the shot, but the nerve to attempt that shot.
I was shocked when I saw his full backswing, knowing how that green slopes away from him and how easily the fronting water comes into play.

That shot could have easily resulted in a double or triple and who knows how much additional damage on 16, 17 and 18.

He could have lost the tournament with the slightest error.

Even if successful, at best he would have picked up a shot on par.

That's one of the ballsiest shots I've ever seen.