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Carl Nichols

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Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2017, 03:11:52 PM »
The 6th hole at LACC North seems like a fish hook hole to me. I haven't played it. What do people think of the hole?


In its current form, it can be played like a fishhook--the safest layup leaves a second shot that would be played at a 70-90 degree angle to the tee shot.  But from that layup and angle, the second shot is to a very narrow green with bunkers in front and in back. 


The alternative, and the reason I don't think it's a fishhook, is to fly the corner and leave a second that plays straight up the length of the green.  I think it's about 230 yards from the regular tee to the start of the fairway on that line, and even shorter tee shots on that line might bounce down the hill into the fairway.  When I played there, I hit driver directly at the green and had about a 15-yard, uphill pitch that didn't have to navigate any bunkers.  I suspect that's how I would play it every time--and I think typical fishhooks don't permit that as an option. 



Thanks Carl. It makes me wonder if only average to below-average players will lay-up left and everyone who is a decent player will go for the green. If the decision to go at the green is an easy one, is it because there isn't enough risk with going right at the green?


Eric: Given my game--good with driver and long irons, poor from inside 90--the reward for going at the green (a pretty straightforward pitch rather than a hard 80 yard shot) is worth the risk (leaving it in the trees or on the hill).  For others, I would think the calculus would be different.  If I were a short hitter, I'd probably take my chances with the 80-yard second. 


Also, I don't have an overhead of the hole, but there are other ways to play it, including by playing longer down the "layup" line (going past the 90 degree angle) and pitching back to the green.   For me that option seemed to make less sense, as it still requires a more difficult pitch, but for folks who couldn't make the carry on the direct line it would be worth the risk. 

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 10:12:57 AM »
I'm guessing this isn't the hole that was being envisaged, but I do think the bit up by the green looks like a fishhook. The "buttress" is really a combination of deep bunkers and a green that slopes away from the fairway. That makes it super hard to play the shot straight at the green, especially from outside about 140 yards in the fairway. Every time I play this hole, I think I'd be best off playing up the right and pitching across, but I can never bring myself to do it when I'm there. I'm sure my average score is higher than it would be as a result.



Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 06:25:05 PM »
Many of the Strantz par 5 fish hooks use water or sand as the barrier allowing cape like decisions.  Being able to visually see the target green and make a decision is much better than a forest.  I've always thought the 13th at Bulls Bay would be great if the trees on the right side of the creek at the second turn were removed the hole would be much improved.  It wouldn't play much differently for most players but likely would entice a more aggressive second shot cutting the corner.





To me - the Strantz examples are a fundamentally different proposition.  They are par 5's and provide for very interesting decisions.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 06:56:37 PM »
Jim Engh employs the sand/water barrier with a few of his par 5s as well...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2017, 07:38:45 AM »
Here is the hole Pete started the thread on.
Here is another hole Pete is familiar with.



Perhaps with Tom Doak's sterling endorsement, I can eliminate the second one.
How many people drive down the previous fairway and chip on from the (apparently relatively open) back of the green?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2017, 12:27:24 PM »

Here is the hole Pete started the thread on.
Here is another hole Pete is familiar with.



Perhaps with Tom Doak's sterling endorsement, I can eliminate the second one.
How many people drive down the previous fairway and chip on from the (apparently relatively open) back of the green?
Likely none. There is a large hedge along the tee and you only have a 25 yd. window at the green end. This is Orchard Hills
GC, Washougal,WA 2nd hole. Many Garland sightings here.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2017, 12:28:45 PM »
Here is the hole Pete started the thread on.
Here is another hole Pete is familiar with.



Perhaps with Tom Doak's sterling endorsement, I can eliminate the second one.
How many people drive down the previous fairway and chip on from the (apparently relatively open) back of the green?

No one. They would have to wedge over the 8' high hedge lining the tee to access the adjoining fairway.
I have hit it into the woods off the tee, and occasionally found the best recovery from there was to the adjoining fairway.

Perhaps I should point out the center of the green is only 190 yards from the tee. A long time ago when the Oregon Golf Association would use the course for bigger events, it is my understanding that the members would come out and watch the players try to hit big cuts over and around the trees. Now the Oregon Golf Association only uses the course for super seniors and junior girls.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:33:48 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Martin Lehmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2017, 12:10:10 PM »
These are very uncommon, because most of them stink.  I have seen only three or four out of 1500 courses.


Tom,


That has to be before you went on your current tour of Germany and Belgium. If you can't find more than 3 of these holes and yes they are all bad, I agree with you 100% then you are blocking them out of your mind like bad memories ha ha or just skipping all the average courses but I find that one hard to believe given the average is in my experience so low.


I can point out a few off hand.


Noordwijkse #5
La Bawette near Brussels #7 - this one is actually a Double fishhook as it's literally made like a bolt of lightening and plays as a par 5. One of the worst architectural holes I may have ever seen.
De Pan #5 this is the only blemish on this otherwise awesome course. fishhook hard right at the end of a par 5 around a big tree/forest area. Not the original green but a Hawtree update - that will soon be fixed.


In The Netherlands they are literally all over the place...painfully so.


David,

I can only agree that these fishhook holes are awful. And unfortunately there are quite a few of them in The Netherland. The worst example I know is in the Uk though: the 17th at The Oxfordshire. A Rees Jones design.

I don't agree that the 5th hole at De Pan falls into this category. The green on this hole is tucked away in a corner, but it is by no means a fishhook. I don't share the fierce criticism on the 5th (and the 7th and 11th) and the Hawtree bashing either. I have played De Pan almost 40 years ago for the first time and know the course well, including the changes that have been made over the years. And I have seen it played by a number of very good players. I witnessed Seve Ballesteros hit a 4 wood (made of persimmon) onto the 5th green with some of the best shots I ever saw in real life. And I heard him say that he loved the hole (maybe not surprisingly after that shot). The people who criticize the 5th hole were critical about the 7th too. I played that hole, which has a new green now, some weeks ago and can't say that I was overly impressed by the result...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:19:29 PM by Martin Lehmann »

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2017, 05:15:35 AM »
The 17th at The Oxfordshire is not a fishhook hole, as it has an heroic option fairway to the left of the lake, nor does it enforce a turn beyond 90 degrees, unless one has played beyond the fairway on the second/third shot lay up. It is a very fine strategic par 5 IMHO.


I can contribute a couple of stinkers when I get in front of my PC.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2017, 04:29:49 PM »
Doc-What about True Blue # 4?! :o  Now that's Stranzification!!!!

Isn't that what you'd call a cape hole? Plus as a par five if you're gonna talk about holes like this, what about Bay Hill's 6th? (Though on that hole you're almost driving across the width of the fairway and less down the line of the fairway…).


BTW I like this hole. -2 in two visits, having reached with a hybrid from the back tees both times. :-) And both times on their GolfBoards.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: fishhook holes
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 10:39:58 AM »
The 3rd at NSW may not qualify as its only 90 degrees - but its an odious little thing.

Interestingly, if you look at google earth, just over the road at the next door St Michaels, there is an equally funny little Question mark shaped effort.  The make quite a pair

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