[Alex Miller]

Here's a better picture that does a better job of showing carrying distances.




And from Kevin Streelman's yardage guide:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex & Ken,

If a righty hits a draw, how many times will he mishit a ball with the face open producing a fade ?

If a lefty hits a draw, how many times will he mishit a ball with the face open producing a fade ?

If a righty hits a fade, how many times will he mishit a ball with the face closed producing a draw ?

If a lefty hits a fade, how many times will he mishit a ball with the face closed producing a draw ?

You have to look at probabilities, not possibilities

If anything, golfers tend to overcook their natural flight.

Most prudent golfers factor that into their shot/aim, in terms of margins of error.

So, tell me how a lefty who draws the ball has an advantage over a righty who draws the ball when the hole is cut far left ?

Now tell me how a lefty who fades the ball has an advantage over a righty who fades the ball when the hole is cut far right ?

[Michael George]

Looking at that diagram, the hole would seem to favor a lefty as the common theory is that a short mishit is usually a fade and a long mishit is a pull.  There certainly is more room to hit short and left then short and right and more room to hit long and right then long and left.

However, these are general assumptions - Patrick is right that it is not for every golfer or every situation.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,

I don't think anyone, left or right handed, has an advantage on the 12th.

Ben Hogan: "It is not necessarily impossible, it simply seems to require more skill than I have at the moment."  

Jack Nicklaus: "The tee shot on No. 12  (is) the toughest on the entire golf course".

Tiger Woods, (when asked if he ever felt comfortable on the tee):  "Absolutely, on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday"


...and Phil Mickelson's record on the 12th?  He's 4-under par on the hole for his three wins and 15 over par for the other 15 years.

[Steve Salmen]

1.  How many times have you ever seen a player at the Masters go long and right?  2.  Long and left? 

3.  How about short and left? 4.   Short and right?

Answers: 1. Never 2. Many times 3.  Very few times 4. Many times

You will NEVER convince me otherwise.

[Sven Nilsen]

In addition to the statistics noted above, here is Tom Doak's take on the subject (from The Anatomy of a Golf Course):

"The mechanics of golf shots also influence the placement of bunkers.  If four bunkers of equal size were placed at the sides of a diamond-shaped green, each would catch a different proportion of shots.  The right front bunker would catch the weakly sliced ball, accounting for probably 40-50 percent of the average golfer's misses.  The left rear bunker might catch another 25-30 percent of shots missing the green, the result of a pulled iron shot which tends to finish long as well as left.  The front left bunker would catch the fat or under clubbed pulled shot, slightly less common than the strong pull.  Least active of all would be the back right bunker, since the shot would have to be significantly over clubbed for the faded approach to reach it."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

[Steve Salmen]

I can't remember ever seeing a right handed player hit his tee shot where Mickelson put it today.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

Maybe the "fat" pull, but the "overcooked" pull will be over the green.

[Matthew Rose]

I can't remember ever seeing a right handed player hit his tee shot where Mickelson put it today.

I was going to say that too.

Obviously, the long and right miss is unusual for anyone else there.

Perhaps it isn't necessarily an easier hole for a lefty but the water may be less in play.

[Alex Miller]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

Most don't understand this because it's wrong. See Phil's shot today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

Most don't understand this because it's wrong. See Phil's shot today.

Since you're so unfamiliar with the hole I would expect you to make that statement. 
As if one shot determines the outcome of all others.
A pull draw which you and others said would have a lower trajectory, after catching the bank, would be deflected further right and roll into the water.

Tell me again how many times you've walked over and observed, examined and analyzed the area in question?.

[Alex Miller]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

Most don't understand this because it's wrong. See Phil's shot today.

Since you're so unfamiliar with the hole I would expect you to make that statement. 
As if one shot determines the outcome of all others.
A pull draw which you and others said would have a lower trajectory, after catching the bank, would be deflected further right and roll into the water.

Tell me again how many times you've walked over and observed, examined and analyzed the area in question?.

Lower trajectory sure, but with a short iron that makes it go longer. A pull/hook will carry farther and land over the bank (as Phil's did) despite the angle.

Of course I haven't walked the ground at Augusta, you and everyone here knows that, but there is no lack of information available about this hole. I appreciate that visiting a course can provide an element of detail that otherwise is unavailable, but rather than proclaim your rounds there as evidence, how about providing some actual facts to support your argument? If it was a matter of ground undulation that's one thing that I would totally defer to someone who's played the course, whether it's the slope of the green, fairway, lips of the bunkers, etc... However we are talking a shot which is entirely aerial and the MOST accurate information available in this regard is from yardage books, aerials, course guides, etc...

Sure the number of lefties playing that hole is greatly outnumbered by righties, but Sven, I and others have shown that lefties have an inherent advantage in hitting the ball in to the "safe zone" this hole, the safe zone being the fairway and green extending out from the lengthwise axis of the green (short-left to long-right). If you can provide one unique perspective since you have visited, PLEASE SHARE IT. If not, then please EXPLAIN why the premise is wrong (in the same way that I provided information supporting my viewpoint). Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lower trajectory sure, but with a short iron that makes it go longer. A pull/hook will carry farther and land over the bank (as Phil's did) despite the angle.

You're using Phil Mickelson's game as the typical golfer's game ?

How much further will a mishit iron travel in the AIR, especially a pull hook with an iron ?
And, with that trajectory, will the ball continue to roll in the hooking direction with land that slopes down to the creek ?

Of course I haven't walked the ground at Augusta, you and everyone here knows that, but there is no lack of information available about this hole.
Of course there's a lack of information.
There's a lack of information from the playing perspective on your side

I appreciate that visiting a course can provide an element of detail that otherwise is unavailable, but rather than proclaim your rounds there as evidence, how about providing some actual facts to support your argument?

Obviously, you're not reading my posts with any degree of comprehension
I've provided innumerable facts

If it was a matter of ground undulation that's one thing that I would totally defer to someone who's played the course, whether it's the slope of the green, fairway, lips of the bunkers, etc...

However we are talking a shot which is entirely aerial and the MOST accurate information available in this regard is from yardage books, aerials, course guides, etc...

It's not entirely aerial.
Since when is a pulled hook entirely aerial ?
Please read my posts with greater care

Sure the number of lefties playing that hole is greatly outnumbered by righties, but Sven, I and others have shown that lefties have an inherent advantage in hitting the ball in to the "safe zone" this hole, the safe zone being the fairway and green extending out from the lengthwise axis of the green (short-left to long-right).

What safe zone ?
Any ball hit long is in a safe zone in terms of the water.
If the hole is cut on the left of the green, where Phil hit it is not a safe zone.


 If you can provide one unique perspective since you have visited, PLEASE SHARE IT. If not, then please EXPLAIN why the premise is wrong (in the same way that I provided information supporting my viewpoint). Thanks.

It's been said, over and over and over again, that the camera flattens and hides depth, contours and undulation.
Balls hit right, with a lefty pull hook are destined to find the water due to the flight of the ball and contour of the land.

You can't take Phil's HIGH , slightly off target 9-iron as representative of how the average golfer plays the hole.

If you want to argue that a ball hit over the green will not find the water, I'd agree with that, but, that's not the issue.

[Steve Salmen]

How many right handed players hit the ball where Mickelson put it yesterday?  Keep in mind that the flag was back right.  The reason right handed players don't go there is because shots missed right tend to come up short.

[Tim Gavrich]

Pat--

In your post #39, you seemed to try to predicate the discussion on golfers who, "RARELY MISS THE BALL."  In your response to Alex's points, you bring up the question of the "average golfer."  I think we can all agree that "average," i.e. 15-20 handicap players, produce such a wide shot dispersion that speculating about their tendencies in general is a fool's errand.  So, I believe we've been talking about the type of players who "RARELY MISS THE BALL."  Therefore, I do not see how one can refute Alex's claims about professional-caliber golfers by citing the supposed tendencies of the "average golfer."

[David_Elvins]

Interesting to see the stats so far this tournament

Hole 12

Left handers scoring average 2.66
Right handers scoring average 3.18

[Sam Morrow]

Interesting to see the stats so far this tournament

Hole 12

Left handers scoring average 2.66
Right handers scoring average 3.18

How many right handers and how many left handers?

[Tom_Doak]

Sven,

Most don't understand that a pulled draw by a lefty will most likely end up in the water when the hole is cut to the right

Most don't understand this because it's wrong. See Phil's shot today.

Since you're so unfamiliar with the hole I would expect you to make that statement. 
As if one shot determines the outcome of all others.
A pull draw which you and others said would have a lower trajectory, after catching the bank, would be deflected further right and roll into the water.

Tell me again how many times you've walked over and observed, examined and analyzed the area in question?.

Patrick:

Tell me again how many times you've observed left-handed players on the hole in question?

There are certain holes which will favor the average left-handed golfer.  The 12th at Augusta is one of them.  Of course, the 11th at Augusta is the opposite.

[Ben Sims]

Looked at this idea seriously today.  Which is to say I spent a few extra minutes back on 12.  The idea has merit.  But only with certain pins.  Today's front left--which is about the size of a master bathroom--would be tougher for lefties IMHO.  If a right hander goes a bit long left--which is the left side miss for a right handed player according to this thread--then he is in a small swale near where the astroturf path ends.  It's a delicate up and down, but doable.  If the lefty misses short left on a front left pin, he looking at a water ball or an up and down from a tight bank. 

In other words, I don't think it is as black/white as some think it is.  But as I said, the idea has merit.  Especially with a middle or right pin. 

[Sam Morrow]

Looked at this idea seriously today.  Which is to say I spent a few extra minutes back on 12.  The idea has merit.  But only with certain pins.  Today's front left--which is about the size of a master bathroom--would be tougher for lefties IMHO.  If a right hander goes a bit long left--which is the left side miss for a right handed player according to this thread--then he is in a small swale near where the astroturf path ends.  It's a delicate up and down, but doable.  If the lefty misses short left on a front left pin, he looking at a water ball or an up and down from a tight bank. 

In other words, I don't think it is as black/white as some think it is.  But as I said, the idea has merit.  Especially with a middle or right pin. 

I think some people like to over analyze thinks, especially at Augusta.

[Doug Siebert]

Ben,

I don't think pin position matters a whole lot, because the smart play on #12 is always to the middle, so you can take your two putt par and move on.  There are plenty of good birdie holes at ANGC, but this isn't one of them.

I'm surprised there is even discussion about this, it seems obvious to the point of ridiculousness that being a lefty is an advantage on this hole.  Yes, there is no guarantee that when playing for the middle of the green a lefty's accidental fade/push will lose a few yards to avoid going long left or his accidental draw/pull will gain a few yards to avoid going short right into the water, but the odds of that are certainly better than for a righty making the same errors.

Patrick can argue until he's blue in the face with his what ifs, and obviously there are going to be exceptions where a particular player's swing may encourage going long on misses to his dominant side (right for righties, left for lefties) and vice versa, but that's atypical.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tell me again how many times you've observed left-handed players on the hole in question?

More than Alex

There are certain holes which will favor the average left-handed golfer. 
The 12th at Augusta is one of them.

We disagree, "flight" not "stance" determines the advantage.

  Of course, the 11th at Augusta is the opposite.

We really disagree on this one.
For a righty who draws the ball versus a lefty who draws the ball, the lefty has an advantage on # 11
# 10 would be an advantage to the right draw versus the lefty draw.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sam,

I've repeated that over and over again, hole LOCATION and ball flight, not stance are the primary factors that provide an advantage..

Doug, unless the hole is cut in the middle, why would a golfer try to hit his ball to the narrowest part of the green ?
Starting the ball at the center or right center and working it makes the most sense for most

Alex,

Your underlying premise, that pulled shots are caused by a closed (delofted) club face is flawed.
Pulled shots can be pulled with a square or even an open club face depending upon the swing plane.
A club face perfectly on line (swing plane) will be pulled when the club face is closed.
In addition, pulled shots don't necessarily CARRY further, relative to the intended target, as you claimed.
On Friday, did you watch Tiger and others pull their shots on # 18, short, into the front left bunker ?
Did you see Westwood push his ball long ?

Tim,

We've been talking about both.

With respect to the 15-20 handicap I'd agree that there's a huge diversity in their play.
With respect to the guys who are playing this week, ball flight and hole location determine the advantage, not stance.

With respect to scoring averages on # 12 and other holes how do the scoring averages compare for the low 10 golfers for the first two rounds compared to the high 10 golfers ?

A lefty, 5 under, on a hole by hole basis, will produce lower averages than a righty (or lefty) who's 10 over.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Started thinking of this thread after the Masters.  Now while Bubba hits it all over the place his preferred tee ball is that power fade.  That is why iI think the lefty's have a advantage off the tee at ANGC.  12th hole not so sure about, but definately with the driver.

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