[Phil McDade]

Phil,

 my thesis is that a power fade is easier to control-which should give the golfer an advantage, particularly if you are looking to hit certain spots in the fairway. 

A power fade is easier to control. It's just that the need to control your tee ball is less of an issue -- in terms of overall scoring -- at Augusta than almost any other course these guys play.

Look at the record -- pure distance (regardless of whether one is a lefty or righty) is a big advantage at Augusta. Nicklaus (really long relative to the field for five of his six wins), Woods (4 wins; among the longest of players -- still), Mickelson (3 wins), Norman (never won, but contended a zillion times, and among the longest players of his era), Couples (really long when he won in 1992, and like Norman he's contended a bunch at the Masters), Palmer (long for his era), Watson (not a boomer, but not short either), Seve (maybe the best example of this) -- all had stellar lifetime records at Augusta, and all were long (or not short) hitters for their eras.

Sure, there are some outliers -- Zach Johnson during the very first year of the changes at Augusta (and a strange weather year, too), Weir, Faldo (who won it three times when he simply had few peers as a golfer). Augusta rewards other things than just length -- good putting for starters -- but length has always been an advantage at that course. Ask a typical player who's competed at the Masters whether he'd rather take accurate placement in the fairway, or XX yards farther down, and I'm guessing most would take the length.

Trevino's disdain for Augusta has been well-chronicled, and I'm convinced one of the reasons was that the course just didn't suit the way he went about attacking and playing a golf course.

[Tim Gavrich]

That's not the critical issue, ball flight is the critical issue when determining advantage.

Ball flight is certainly important, but the fundamental fact that certain things almost always happen when players, especially the best ones, push and pull shots, combined with the fact that those certain things are opposite for lefties and righties, makes it conceivable that lefties can have a slight advantage over righties if a hole penalizes long-left more than long-right and short-right more than shirt-left.  This seems to be the case at #12 at ANGC, given the orientation of the green to the line of play.

If the hole is cut far left, as a lefty who draws the ball or a righty who fades the ball, are you going to start the ball over the water left and bring it back to the green ?

Or, are you going to utilize the margins of error presented by the architecture and your normal game to maximize your chances for making birdie/par ?

Of course I'll elect to play for the middle of the green.  However, this does not change the fact that if I'm a righty, I know that if I pull the ball it'll go farther and into that back collection area and if I push the ball, I'm bound for bunker or creek.  It also does not change the fact that if I'm a lefty, I'm less concerned because a slight pull probably goes to the back of the green while a slight push will probably put the ball fairly close to the hole.

There are a few greens at my home course that are pretty shallow and angle from front-left to back-right.  I've hit both a draw and fade with my irons at different times in the history of my own golf game and have felt the same relatively high level of comfort when hitting into those greens no matter what.

Phil Mickelson has won the Masters three times and Mike Weir won it in 2003. The sample size of left handed players is pretty small, but it would not be an incredible stretch to at least wonder if Augusta--and one of its back nine's pivotal holes--might set up slightly better for lefties.  Obviously the day's pin positions play significantly into it over the course of 18, 36, 54, 72 holes, but that doesn't mean the notion is completely without merit.

The course has long been acknowledged as a right handed drawer's delight.

A lefty fade might be second.

I'll be banking on the lefty fade advantage after I win the US Am this year and compete in the Masters next year!     And I'm going to birdie #12 at least once because I'll feel more comfortable on that tee- knowing that if I aim for the middle of the green, my slight pull will find the back and a slight push will find the front--than the unlucky 85% who happen to be right-handed!

In all seriousness, from what I've seen of the golf course on television and given Mickelson and Weir's triumphs (Weir's especially), I would feel more comfortable 'round ANGC tee-to-green than a course like Cardinal CC in Greensboro, NC, a Pete Dye course that has never fit my eye because of a lot of shots--especially tee shots--that will punish a left-handed fade, which is what I hit with my longer clubs.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Ask a typical player who's competed at the Masters whether he'd rather take accurate placement in the fairway, or XX yards farther down, and I'm guessing most would take the length.

I agree distance is preferred.  I'm just saying that if you have two bombers (lefty and righty) who can move it 300 yards, for this course tee to gree, I'll take the lefty fader over the righty drawer.

[Phil McDade]

Ask a typical player who's competed at the Masters whether he'd rather take accurate placement in the fairway, or XX yards farther down, and I'm guessing most would take the length.

I agree distance is preferred.  I'm just saying that if you have two bombers (lefty and righty) who can move it 300 yards, for this course tee to gree, I'll take the lefty fader over the righty drawer.

I wouldn't. Remember that at key points -- 10, 11, 13, and 15 come to mind -- a rolling draw can get the benefit of an extra yardage boost via the terrain and speed slots. The guy who draws the ball is more likely to see his shot roll out and get the benefit of those than a fader who's ball is likely to have less roll out.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pat,

Your point of playing a fade to the right hand hole location shows you don't really understand the physics of the situation. When attempting a fade one of three things can happen:

The players clubface is open to the exact degree he anticpated; he hits the perfect fade towards the hole.

The players clubface is more square than he anticpated; the added loft causes the ball to long and left, not a good scenario, but surviveable.

The players clubface is more open than he anticpated and the ball goes short and right of where he planned; ask Tom Weiskopf how this scenario playes out!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Your point of playing a fade to the right hand hole location shows you don't really understand the physics of the situation.

That's possible, but unlikely

When attempting a fade one of three things can happen:

ONLY THREE THINGS ?
I've got to attempt a fade more often

If a fade is my natural or Preferred flight, then when I attempt a fade, I'm pretty sure that........ The ball will fade.
And that the other things are unlikely to happen

The players clubface is open to the exact degree he anticpated; he hits the perfect fade towards the hole.

The players clubface is more square than he anticpated; the added loft causes the ball to long and left, not a good scenario, but survivable
If the players club face is more square (less open) that's less loft, not added loft

The players clubface is more open than he anticpated and the ball goes short and right of where he planned; ask Tom Weiskopf how this scenario playes out!

So out of thousands of players over 78 years you cite one golfer, one incident to support your premise ?
Having played with Weiskopf I'm fairly familiar with his ball flight.

Will you and your fellow "lefty" supporters now cite Rory's tee shot on # 10 ?

[Steve Salmen]

There are infinite variables.  Let's assume the following:
-The player is good to very good
-The flag is anywhere on the green (not a consideration for the player)
-The target for the player is the middle of the green
-The player hits a straight ball
-There is no wind

BTW, this fictitious player is not me because:
-I have never played, nor will probably ever play the course
-I can't imagine being on a golf course without wind
-I can't hit the ball straight and am no longer good

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are infinite variables.  Let's assume the following:
-The player is good to very good
-The flag is anywhere on the green (not a consideration for the player)

But, it has to be.
Hole location is a significant factor in determining play

-The target for the player is the middle of the green

Steve, I'm not so sure that the middle of the green, over the fronting bunker, is the ideal target.

-The player hits a straight ball
-There is no wind

BTW, this fictitious player is not me because:
-I have never played, nor will probably ever play the course
-I can't imagine being on a golf course without wind
-I can't hit the ball straight and am no longer good

Hypotheticals lack emotion.

As Mike Tyson says, everybody's got a game plan until they get hit.

Same with # 12 at ANGC.

So much depends upon how you feel about yourself and your play as you step up on the 12th tee.

[Sam Morrow]

Seems like it only helps a lefty if it suits their shot shape.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Seems like it only helps a lefty if it suits their shot shape.

Sam,

As I've said, hole location, ball flight and wind are the critical elements in playing the hole well.

[Sam Morrow]

Seems like it only helps a lefty if it suits their shot shape.

Sam,

As I've said, hole location, ball flight and wind are the critical elements in playing the hole well.

I'm with you 100%. I think people want to read to much into it because it's Augusta. If this hole was on the front nine at TPC Deere Run then we wouldn't say it favors a lefty or a righty, we'd say it favors a specific shot shape.

[Alex Miller]

Draws go farther, fades go shorter.

Less loft at impact: the ball goes farther. More loft at impact: the ball goes shorter.

For a lefty, if the club rotates closed, it has less loft and the ball will go right. Good for #12
For a lefty, if the club remains open, it has more loft and will go left. Good for #12.


All variables aside (or include them if you want, it's just physics after all), the golf club is not swung on a vertical plane. All strikes being equal, a closed clubface for a lefty will result in long/right shot with the opposite occurring for an open clubface. The 12th's green is oriented to accomodate those misses better than the long/left and short/right misses of righties.

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

[Bill Brightly]

The real question is not whether a player is lefty or righty. IMO, the question is: "where does the player's most common miss end up?" THAT is the thought in the player's mind. We all have a preferred 155 shot, and we expect to hit it well a certain % of the time, but we know where our most frequent miss is, right? And if our "miss" is short right, the question is do we compensate for a possible miss right and aim left? Or do we ignore that, squeeze our cheeks, and trust that we will hit a good shot?

That to me is the essence of great design: a fair enough shot request coupled with features that make doubt enter the player's mind.

[Steve Salmen]

I feel like I've gone 12 rounds with Mike Tyson.  No mas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Draws go farther, fades go shorter.

Does Jack Nicklaus know that ?

Less loft at impact: the ball goes farther. More loft at impact: the ball goes shorter.

I guess you're not familiar with launch angles

For a lefty, if the club rotates closed, it has less loft and the ball will go right. Good for #12

No, it's not

For a lefty, if the club remains open, it has more loft and will go left. Good for #12.

Absolutely not


All variables aside (or include them if you want, it's just physics after all), the golf club is not swung on a vertical plane. All strikes being equal, a closed clubface for a lefty will result in long/right shot with the opposite occurring for an open clubface. The 12th's green is oriented to accomodate those misses better than the long/left and short/right misses of righties.

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

You, and your supporters seem to be forgetting about a huge segment of golfers who will play the 12th this week.

Golfers who DON'T MISS THE BALL.

So for golfers who don't miss the ball, who does the hole favor ?

Ball flight is the critical element in conjunction with hole location.

Alex, have you played the hole ?

[Alex Miller]

Pat,

Have you played the hole left-handed? Only people who've played it both ways really have a say, don't they (I'm assuming you're a righty golfer).


Can anyone get Mac O'Grady to chime in and solve this debate?

[Alex Miller]

Draws go farther, fades go shorter.

Does Jack Nicklaus know that ?

Less loft at impact: the ball goes farther. More loft at impact: the ball goes shorter.

I guess you're not familiar with launch angles
I am familiar. You do realize that players hit short irons into #12, so less loft does mean the ball will travel farther.


For a lefty, if the club rotates closed, it has less loft and the ball will go right. Good for #12

No, it's not
Should've said better. And yes, it is better than the righty counterpart misses of short/right and long/left.


For a lefty, if the club remains open, it has more loft and will go left. Good for #12.

Absolutely not

See above.

All variables aside (or include them if you want, it's just physics after all), the golf club is not swung on a vertical plane. All strikes being equal, a closed clubface for a lefty will result in long/right shot with the opposite occurring for an open clubface. The 12th's green is oriented to accomodate those misses better than the long/left and short/right misses of righties.

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

You, and your supporters seem to be forgetting about a huge segment of golfers who will play the 12th this week.

Golfers who DON'T MISS THE BALL.

So for golfers who don't miss the ball, who does the hole favor ?

Ball flight is the critical element in conjunction with hole location.

Alex, have you played the hole ?
I actually tailored my answers to "players who don't miss the ball". These players have quality strikes nearly everytime, yet the misses do vary in direction and distance occasionally, and that is what I'm addressing. Nearly all of these misses are due to the clubface not being square at impact, so what is it you're looking for?

And no, of course I haven't played the hole, but you have not provided any support to your claims whether they be tied to your experience playing the hole or otherwise.

Sorry for all the colors.

[jeffwarne]

A green angled such that the left side of the green is closer to the tee  than the right will favor a left handed left to right shot more than a right handed left to right shot because shots played with lofted clubs hooked too much will go lower and farther, thus carrying the creek and reaching the portion of the green furthest from the tee.
a lefty push left of target will go shorter and therefore still reach the closer left portion of the green.

The opposite is true in both cases for right hander whose pull will go over the green as the left side is shorter and  pulls/hooks go farther,and whose push won't reach the portion of the green farthest from the tee.

This is assuming the lefty is as comfortable playing a draw as a righty is playing a fade, and that both are aiming towards the center and working the ball toward the pin.

Having played #12 at least 50 timees on adventurous summer evenings, I must be right and am therefore immune to green ink

[Ken Moum]

Alex,

You are correct. The only person who has published the results of thousands of iron shots by pro golfers is Dave Pelz. And his diagrams clearly show a pattern that look like a bikini top, except that  it's tilted with a cluster of shots long left and another short right.

Since that's the opposite of how ANGCs 12th green is aligned, any reasonable person would conclude that it favors left handed players...if only slightly.

K

[Pete Lavallee]

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

Alex,

Clearly the Tritons are educating you well; lucky you didn't go to Notre Dame or  you would have been unable to comprehend this very simple observation. For proof check out Mike Weir's scoring average on #12.

[Alex Miller]

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

Alex,

Clearly the Tritons are educating you well; lucky you didn't go to Notre Dame or this or you would have been unable to comprehend this very simple observation. For proof check out Mike Weir's scoring average on #12.

D'oh! Clearly you took away the most important part, Pete! 

[Michael George]

Obviously hole location is necessary to determine whether 90% of the approach shots benefit a lefty or righty.  But IN GENERAL, if the shot requires a right to left shot, it will generally provide an advantage to lefties and a left to right shot will benefit the righty - as it is easier to control a fade into a green.

If you believe that a fade is easier to control than a hook, looking at each hole, here are my thoughts:

1- probably an easier drive for a righty that can play a fade out left and around the outside of the right bunkers - unless you can fly the bunkers.
2 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can play a power fade off the right bunker down the hill.
3 - no advantage
4 - no advantage
5 - probably an easier drive for the lefty that can play a fade to the right and have cut into the middle of the fairway - but not much
6 - no advantage
7-  no advantage
8 - probaby an easier approach for a lefty that can fade an approach 3 wood into that green
9 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can fade around the corner
10 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can fade around the corner
11 - probably an easier drive for a righty that can start fade down left side of the fairway - but not much
12 - probably an easier tee shot for a lefty because a miss goes left and stays dry, but not huge difference
13 - huge advantage for lefty to fade drive and fade an approach into that green off downhill lie (instead of a draw)
14 - no advantage
15 - no advantage
16 - probably an easier tee shot for a righty due to back right pin position used on 2 days of the tournament
17 - no advantage
18 - no advantage
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golden Bell: Clearly and advantage for Lefties.

Alex,

Clearly the Tritons are educating you well; lucky you didn't go to Notre Dame or  you would have been unable to comprehend this very simple observation.

For proof check out Mike Weir's scoring average on #12.

Score alone doesn't support the premise.
Without ball flight and hole location a reasonable statistical conclusion can't be drawn.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What's the incremental advantage ?

What are the required carry distances to the left center versus the right center ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Obviously hole location is necessary to determine whether 90% of the approach shots benefit a lefty or righty.  

But IN GENERAL, if the shot requires a right to left shot, it will generally provide an advantage to lefties and a left to right shot will benefit the righty - as it is easier to control a fade into a green.

No, it's not.
And, a fade for whom, a righty or a lefty.

If you believe that a fade is easier to control than a hook, looking at each hole, here are my thoughts:

Why did you go to the extreme and compare a fade to a "HOOK"

A fade should be compared to a draw.
A "HOOK" to a "SLICE"

Hence your comparison is invalid

1- probably an easier drive for a righty that can play a fade out left and around the outside of the right bunkers - unless you can fly the bunkers.
2 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can play a power fade off the right bunker down the hill.
3 - no advantage
4 - no advantage
5 - probably an easier drive for the lefty that can play a fade to the right and have cut into the middle of the fairway - but not much
6 - no advantage
7-  no advantage
8 - probaby an easier approach for a lefty that can fade an approach 3 wood into that green
9 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can fade around the corner
10 - probably an easier drive for a lefty that can fade around the corner
11 - probably an easier drive for a righty that can start fade down left side of the fairway - but not much
12 - probably an easier tee shot for a lefty because a miss goes left and stays dry, but not huge difference
13 - huge advantage for lefty to fade drive and fade an approach into that green off downhill lie (instead of a draw)
14 - no advantage
15 - no advantage
16 - probably an easier tee shot for a righty due to back right pin position used on 2 days of the tournament
17 - no advantage
18 - no advantage
 

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