[Steve Salmen]

I think pulls tend to go long and pushes short.  Agree? Disagree?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does the lefty draw or fade the ball ?

[John Kirk]

Hi Patrick,

I don't think it matters.  Garland Bayley and I have both recently suggested we believe #12 is a left hander's hole, because pulls tend to go long, while pushes usually come up short.  And for righties, that sounds like "ploink!".

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Mr. Mucci on this one, I think. Never having played the hole I couldn't say for sure.

The general principal of long left and short riding being trouble are true enough. But for elite players, a Nicklaus type who is most comfortable with a righty fade or a Mickelson type who prefers a lefty draw are both catered to by the design of the hole.

Some lefty whose natural shot is a fade might have more room for error than a righty who hits a draw but neither of them is going to find the hole particularly suits their best shot under pressure. Even for the best players in the world it's nice to have a delicate shot like that on Sunday in a major that just happens to suit the shot you can hit without trying anything special, doesn't it?

[Stuart Goldstein]

Don't think it matters on 12 but I think being a lefty has its advantages off the tee.  Instead of a righty having to turn the ball over a lefty can hit that big power fade-easier to control. This would be a easier tee shot on 2,5,9,10, 13, 14,17.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi Patrick,

I don't think it matters.  Garland Bayley and I have both recently suggested we believe #12 is a left hander's hole, because pulls tend to go long, while pushes usually come up short.  And for righties, that sounds like "ploink!".

John,

Do pulls hit in the heel go long ?

How about pulls hit high on the club face ?

Pulls hit in the toe ?

Pulls hit low on the club face ?

Same questions for pushes ?

Steve,

Where's the hole location and what's the wind doing ?

[John Kirk]

Hi Patrick,

Surely you know I am making a general comment about the nature of pulled and pushed shots, based on my experience of hitting them and seeing them.  Right handed players tend to miss long and left more, or short and right more.

I wish I could participate more this morning, but I have to go pull a few shots in real life.

JK

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

OK

BUT, the location of the hole is a critical element, as is the golfer's natural ball flight

[Tim Gavrich]

No matter the player's natural ball flight, though, the same general sorts of things are going to happen when they push or pull a shot.

A right-hander stands on #12 tee. Most likely outcomes, whether he hits a natural draw or fade:
- He hits a good shot, at his target, safely on the green.
- He comes out of his tee shot a little, ball comes out higher and hangs out to the right, has to travel farther to be safe on the back-right portion of the green.  If it's a huge miss, it hits the middle of the creek. If it's a small one, the ball might hang up on the edge of the green or trickle into the creek or front bunker.
- He double-clutches and comes over the top a bit, ball travels lower, farther (being less affected by the wind), goes into the collection area behind the green or the bunker, with a tough up-and-down awaiting.

A left-hander stands on the tee at #12. Most likely outcomes, whether he hits a natural draw or fade:
- He hits a good shot, at his target, safely on the green.
- He comes out of his tee shot a bit, the ball hangs out to the left and is hit higher. If there's a ton of wind or if he's really hit an awful one, it may be wet anyway but if not and it's only a 4-6 yard miss, it'll end up on the front-left edge.
- He double-clutches, comes over the top slightly. If he's really hit a huge pull, the ball's either way over the green long-right or in the creek.  But if it's a slight tug or the pin's in the front or middle, he'll be putting from the back of the green.

There are a few greens at my home course that are pretty shallow and angle from front-left to back-right.  I've hit both a draw and fade with my irons at different times in the history of my own golf game and have felt the same relatively high level of comfort when hitting into those greens no matter what.

Phil Mickelson has won the Masters three times and Mike Weir won it in 2003. The sample size of left handed players is pretty small, but it would not be an incredible stretch to at least wonder if Augusta--and one of its back nine's pivotal holes--might set up slightly better for lefties.  Obviously the day's pin positions play significantly into it over the course of 18, 36, 54, 72 holes, but that doesn't mean the notion is completely without merit.

[Will MacEwen]

Tim.

As a lefty with all the misses in the bag, I generally agree with you.

I think Mickelson said the back right pin on 16 is tough for a LH as they are most likely to shortside themselves high and right, which is the worst position.

[Phil McDade]

Don't think it matters on 12 but I think being a lefty has its advantages off the tee.  Instead of a righty having to turn the ball over a lefty can hit that big power fade-easier to control. This would be a easier tee shot on 2,5,9,10, 13, 14,17.   

Stuart:

I'd argue that Augusta National generally -- in the absence of odd weather conditions -- has been a course that favors those with length, and not necessarily accuracy (in that it doesn't punish inaccuracy the way other courses do) which presumably favors righties who can draw the ball with length.

[Sven Nilsen]

Phil:

Are you saying the holes set up better for a righty with a draw than they do for a lefty with a draw?  If length is the key, wouldn't the long hitting righty and the long hitting lefty have the same advantages?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil:

Are you saying the holes set up better for a righty with a draw than they do for a lefty with a draw?  If length is the key, wouldn't the long hitting righty and the long hitting lefty have the same advantages?

NO

Phil's absolutely correct about the righty draw.

Lee Trevino stated that for years

Today's exceptions are probably holes # 11 and # 18.

[Patrick_Mucci]

No matter the player's natural ball flight, though, the same general sorts of things are going to happen when they push or pull a shot.
That's not the critical issue, ball flight is the critical issue when determining advantage.

If the hole is cut far left, are you going to start the ball off left, over the water and hope you hit the shot correctly so that it fades back onto the green ?

A right-hander stands on #12 tee. Most likely outcomes, whether he hits a natural draw or fade:
- He hits a good shot, at his target, safely on the green.
- He comes out of his tee shot a little, ball comes out higher and hangs out to the right, has to travel farther to be safe on the back-right portion of the green.  If it's a huge miss, it hits the middle of the creek. If it's a small one, the ball might hang up on the edge of the green or trickle into the creek or front bunker.
- He double-clutches and comes over the top a bit, ball travels lower, farther (being less affected by the wind), goes into the collection area behind the green or the bunker, with a tough up-and-down awaiting.

A left-hander stands on the tee at #12. Most likely outcomes, whether he hits a natural draw or fade:
- He hits a good shot, at his target, safely on the green.
- He comes out of his tee shot a bit, the ball hangs out to the left and is hit higher. If there's a ton of wind or if he's really hit an awful one, it may be wet anyway but if not and it's only a 4-6 yard miss, it'll end up on the front-left edge.
- He double-clutches, comes over the top slightly. If he's really hit a huge pull, the ball's either way over the green long-right or in the creek.  But if it's a slight tug or the pin's in the front or middle, he'll be putting from the back of the green.

In my limited experience, playing golf everywhere, I've seen a far greater number of scenarios than the ones you conveniently present.

Tim,  how many times have you played the hole ?

If the hole is cut far left, as a lefty who draws the ball or a righty who fades the ball, are you going to start the ball over the water left and bring it back to the green ?

Or, are you going to utilize the margins of error presented by the architecture and your normal game to maximize your chances for making birdie/par ?

There are a few greens at my home course that are pretty shallow and angle from front-left to back-right.  I've hit both a draw and fade with my irons at different times in the history of my own golf game and have felt the same relatively high level of comfort when hitting into those greens no matter what.

I'm not familiar with your course, but, I'd venture a guess that the greens you mention don't have water short and left and right, bunkers short and long and a steep hill, densely shrubbed immediately behind the green.  I can't speak to the winds at your course, but they can be a significant factor at # 12 on certain days.

In addition, most of us play match play.
The Masters however is conducted at Medal play, hence the avoidance of a big number is critical, not just on # 12, but, # 11, # 13, # 15 and # 16 as well.  Those water holes can make or break your round.  So, playing # 12 at medal play is different from playing with your buddies on your home course most of the time. 

The 12th at ANGC is a unique golf hole

Phil Mickelson has won the Masters three times and Mike Weir won it in 2003. The sample size of left handed players is pretty small, but it would not be an incredible stretch to at least wonder if Augusta--and one of its back nine's pivotal holes--might set up slightly better for lefties.  Obviously the day's pin positions play significantly into it over the course of 18, 36, 54, 72 holes, but that doesn't mean the notion is completely without merit.

The course has long been acknowledged as a right handed drawer's delight.

A lefty fade might be second.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

If that's the point, that's not what he said.  I'm not arguing the assertion, I'm just asking if that's what he meant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil:

Are you saying the holes set up better for a righty with a draw than they do for a lefty with a draw?  If length is the key, wouldn't the long hitting righty and the long hitting lefty have the same advantages?

Sven,

The answer to your question may lie in the examination of a schematic or aerial of the golf course.

The general shape of the holes has long been regarded as favoring a righty who draws the ball.

[Sven Nilsen]

I never argued that point.

Back to the topic at hand, from the sounds of it you do not seem to think that the 12th in particular favors a lefty over a righty.  I think we need to break this down into to different questions:

1.  Does it favor a highly-skilled lefty over a righty?

2.  Does it favor an average-level lefty over a right?

Sven

[Bill Brightly]

Hi Patrick,

I don't think it matters.  Garland Bayley and I have both recently suggested we believe #12 is a left hander's hole, because pulls tend to go long, while pushes usually come up short.  And for righties, that sounds like "ploink!".

John,

Do pulls hit in the heel go long ?

How about pulls hit high on the club face ?

Pulls hit in the toe ?

Pulls hit low on the club face ?

Same questions for pushes ?

Pat,

Thanks for the new swing thoughts! I was running a little low...

[Stuart Goldstein]

The course has long been acknowledged as a right handed drawer's delight.

A lefty fade might be second.

I'll take that big ole lefty power fade any time at Augusta.

"You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen,"-Trevino

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

I've tried to state my position, but, noone will accept it.

Ball flight and hole location determine advantage.

Pretend the hole is cut far left.
Are you going to try to hit a fade that starts out left of the green and hope it comes back to the green ?

Or, would a draw to the center or right center be the shot of choice.

Now, if the hole is in the center, same question, do you start it out at the narrower left side of the green or the fatter right side.

Hole cut to the far right.
Perhaps a fade is the flight of choice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The course has long been acknowledged as a right handed drawer's delight.

A lefty fade might be second.

I'll take that big ole lefty power fade any time at Augusta.

Then you won't fare as well as a golfer with a power draw.

"You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen,"-Trevino

A hook and a slice are different from a draw and a fade.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Then you won't fare as well as a golfer with a power draw.

It depends on the golfer.  I'll take Phil's 300 yard lefty power fade over Mark Wilson's 275 yard power draw.

[jim_lewis]

I don't think the question of fades vs. draws is very relevant on #12. Almost all players are trying to hit it straight to a relatively fat part of the green, and only the desperate or the foolhardy try to "work it" to the flag, especially on Sunday. The only winner that I recall ever going for the flag on the right side on Sunday was Crenshaw in 1984, and I always doubted if the did it intentionally. I don't think the tournament has ever been won on #12, but it sure has been lost there many times. Only a miracle saved Couples there. Every player would be thrilled with four 3's on #12. Few achieve it.

Phil: Accuracy off the tee at Augusta is not a matter of keeping the ball out of the rough. Accuracy is about hitting to the correct spot in the fairway. Winning there demands accurate approaches to the correct side of the hole location. That can be achieved consistantly only by playing from the correct side of the fairway.

Jim

[Phil McDade]

Stuart and Sven:

I'll defer on-the-ground experience at ANGC to Patrick, who's actually played there; I've merely watched it for years on TV.

However, ANGC has a number of holes (not counting the par 3s, which largely depend on flag/hole position and wind on the day) that favor a right-to-left shot off the tee. Notable examples include 2, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 17. There aren't that many holes -- 1 perhaps, 18 for sure -- where a "power fade" is an advantage.

My broader argument is that Augusta -- for years prior to the tightening of the fairways, and to a large extent still -- is not a course that unduly penalizes loose play off the tee, compared to other courses that typically host majors. Thus, the "need"  to control shots off the tee with a "controlled fade" isn't as important as gaining additional yards from the ability to play a draw with length.

[Stuart Goldstein]

Phil,

I have not had the pleasure of playing ANGC but have been to a few Masters.  The general consensus is that the course favors a right to left tee ball, for a righty golfer.   Now while ANGC does not have US Open rough, my thesis is that a power fade is easier to control-which should give the golfer an advantage, particularly if you are looking to hit certain spots in the fairway.  Obviously a short lefty, like a short righty, is at a disadvantage, but everything else being equal I prefer the lefty fade at ANGC.

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