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Joe_Tucholski

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Aside from par 3's I don't really understand the purpose of a bunker less than 100 yards from the tee.  In my mind it can only punish the high handicapper.  

I just returned from a golf binge where I played Pasatiempo, among others.  The 6th hole is a 567 yard par 5.  The tee shot is uphill to a blind landing area with a large bunker just off the tee on the right side.  Here is the view from the tee:


The back tee was closed and roped off on the day I played so the back tee was located where the whites normally are but I can't imagine that the extra yardage does much to increase the utility of the bunker.  Here is a view from left of the back tee:


I saw the bunker and thought back to a bunker at Kapalua I also wondered about on the 4th hole as both are on uphill tee shots to a blind landing area seen here:


The 3rd hole on Old Mac has some blown out areas short and right off the tee and also straight away but I assumed these were natural and certainly don't appear to be maintained so it doesn't bother me at all.  Photo seen here:



Do these bunkers bother anyone else?  Is the bunker placed simply as a tool to frame the hole?  Is it supposed to mimic a blowout bunker that would tend to occur naturally?  What are some other tee shots aside from par 3's where a bunker is found within 100 yards of the tee?

« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:46:32 PM by Joe_Tucholski »

Mark Saltzman

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Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 12:31:54 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply with a good reference and the name/term for bunkers of this variety.

There are some interesting explanations for the presence of these type of bunkers in the referenced threads.

If the purpose of these types of bunkers was as Geoff Shackelford described to "generate soil to elevate tees or to help create nearby green complexes" I'm not sure they should be maintained.  If as many have suggested they serve to provide challenge to the high handicapper then I now see their purpose and understand their presence.  Interesting I thought they only punished the high handicapper and not that they provided a challenge to overcome (probably because forced caries are so decried).  The explanation I like the most is to define the playing corridors on wide open courses devoid of trees, which would also likely be the type of course where a low running tee shot would be beneficial to avoid the wind.

Here is another link pertaining to the topic:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28149.0.html


Two others that pertain to the general idea:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,11899.0.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27332.0.html

(Also sorry for all the edits to the first post.  I was trying to embed a slide show instead of posting numerous photos...it didn't work)

Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 04:53:19 AM »
Joe

What if the bunker is quite historic, attractive and on sandy land?


Ciao
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 05:02:23 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 06:13:08 AM »
I seem to remember that vestiges of top-shot bunkers were visible on other holes at Pasatiempo, possibly short holes on the outward nine.

Were top-shot bunkers not a throwback to the guttie ball, which was much more difficult to get airborne than the later wound ball? Certainly the topped shot was considered one of the most heinous crimes of pre-Haskell golf. Hence, also, so many cross-bunkers just in front of greens on 19th century courses.

There are any number of cross-bunkers at the 350 yard mark at Wilmslow (q.v.) and they cause me much concern.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 06:27:20 AM »
Deal used to have a few old hickory bunkers. Sadly they were filled in due to maintainance issues and they only caught the poor golfer for whom the course is plenty tough enough!
Cave Nil Vino

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 08:04:49 AM »
Joe,

Should there not be a minimum standard for performance off the tee ?

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 02:45:11 PM »
 There can be several reasons for a bunker to be placed.  Using the Pasa example, it could also be a saving bunker in that it keeps the ball from rolling into an unrecoverable shot area (I have never been to Pasa so I can't be too definitive on this example). Also, designers are aestheticians and Mac was definitely one of its prime advocates of using it.  Imagine the view of that tee shot without the bunker. Does it reduce or enhance interest? Scale? Depth? Contrast? Strategy? Does it solve a hilside erosion problem? Etc.

  By the picture, I like it.  The windows on the houses bug me more, what with me having no minimum standard of golfing proficiency. (Hi Pat). And the flanking barren yards look unhealthy.

  Barona Creek (San Diego area) went through a recent massive renovation to eliminate tall grasses from the fronting areas of tees and adding sandy wastelands to, I assume, reduce irrigation concerns, rattlesnake strikes, and mowing requirements.  Personally, I liked the tall grass look better, though the sandy wastes were well done, but money is a prime motivator.  The change probably helped speed up play as there is less time looking for lost balls, though the cuss/foozle factor is probably just the same as before.


"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 02:55:14 PM »
I've heard some folks refer to these bunkers as "sight" bunkers because the architect is trying to direct or distract one's sight.  I have also heard the term, "8 or 80" bunkers, meaning that only an 8 year-old or an 80 year-old is a real threat to hit it into the bunker. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 06:15:20 PM »
Joe
I wouldn't visit any Stanley Thompson courses if I were you... or Wolf Point either.

It is just another bunker, until you hit into it.
    - Mike Nuzzo
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 06:30:36 PM »
There's a bunker about 150 yards off our 13th tee and only 100 yards off the ladies tee.   My wife got aggravated a couple of times until she found the solution:  play around it to the left!    I love the way the fairer sex plays, unburdened by ego.   

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 11:41:19 PM »
Sean,

It's a tough thing to answer so luckily I'm not in the position to make decisions on bunker placements at any course.  My golfing pedigree is essentially playing public/military courses where the sliding scale of costs vs esthetics/architecture places a greater emphasis on the costs.  That might have something to do with my questioning the value of bunkers short of the fairway and w/in 100 yards of the tee.  I realized one of the courses I play regularly has a bunker that is fairly close off the tee on the right side (I think it is 150ish yards).  It's on the edge of some scrub and well after the fairway starts, as the fairway essentially starts at the tee.  The bunker has never struck me as out of place even though I've never come close to being in it (watch me top my tee shot tomorrow).

The bunker you posted is also on the first hole.  In all honesty I'm not sure I like it much.  Obviously my feelings on the bunker mean nothing and I'm not saying I would advocate for its removal, but I do wonder why it's there and what benefit it has, especially in the center of some long grass.  I'd much prefer sandy unmaintained waste area without the railroad ties.

Patrick,

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask.  I will say I won't play with my wife or certain friends unless I know the course will be empty, but that is because I don't want to inconvenience others, not because they have failed to meet a minimum standard to play on a golf course.

Slag,

It doesn't impact my interest.  Not sure the scale is appropriate.  I'm not certain if it adds depth.  It certainly adds contrast.  It doesn't add strategy in my mind.  I can't comment on any erosion problem.

Interestingly the barren yards are on the course.  There were a number of areas where I believe they are slowly trying to return to native grasses and adjust/reduce irrigation.
http://pasatiempomaintenance.com/2012/02/26/puzzle-pieces/

Mike,

I've yet to play a Thompson course and I don’t figure I’ll have the opportunity to play Wolf Point.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 08:49:49 PM »
Might be a sentinel bunker indicating danger for shots in that direction and to play the tee shot to the other side of the fairway.

Jim Nugent

Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 08:35:50 AM »
IIRC, ANGC's original design had a few of these, including one at number 6, the par 3.  Surprises me that on a course with so few bunkers, several of them were basically out of play. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 08:45:41 AM »
Sean,

It's a tough thing to answer so luckily I'm not in the position to make decisions on bunker placements at any course.  My golfing pedigree is essentially playing public/military courses where the sliding scale of costs vs esthetics/architecture places a greater emphasis on the costs.  That might have something to do with my questioning the value of bunkers short of the fairway and w/in 100 yards of the tee.  I realized one of the courses I play regularly has a bunker that is fairly close off the tee on the right side (I think it is 150ish yards).  It's on the edge of some scrub and well after the fairway starts, as the fairway essentially starts at the tee.  The bunker has never struck me as out of place even though I've never come close to being in it (watch me top my tee shot tomorrow).

The bunker you posted is also on the first hole.  In all honesty I'm not sure I like it much.  Obviously my feelings on the bunker mean nothing and I'm not saying I would advocate for its removal, but I do wonder why it's there and what benefit it has, especially in the center of some long grass.  I'd much prefer sandy unmaintained waste area without the railroad ties.

Patrick,

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask.  I will say I won't play with my wife or certain friends unless I know the course will be empty, but that is because I don't want to inconvenience others, not because they have failed to meet a minimum standard to play on a golf course.

Slag,

It doesn't impact my interest.  Not sure the scale is appropriate.  I'm not certain if it adds depth.  It certainly adds contrast.  It doesn't add strategy in my mind.  I can't comment on any erosion problem.

Interestingly the barren yards are on the course.  There were a number of areas where I believe they are slowly trying to return to native grasses and adjust/reduce irrigation.
http://pasatiempomaintenance.com/2012/02/26/puzzle-pieces/

Mike,

I've yet to play a Thompson course and I don’t figure I’ll have the opportunity to play Wolf Point.


Normally I would agree with you, but there are always exceptions especially when sandy soil is avialble.  I can't imagine this bunker is terribly expensive to maintain because of the ties, but I bet that in the old days this sandy area blended with a NLE sandy area crossing the 18th.  That may well have looked better, but with the damage beach sand can do and a public path cutting through here - I think a very sensible compromise was achieved.  I wouldn't want to see the bunker OR THE FIRST TEE REMOVED/MOVED.  The 18th/1st/practice green/house/proshop setup at Hunstanton is one of the best in the world and shouldn't be messed with on any account.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
As a Ross fan, I have taken a liking to them.  Its a cruel kind reminder not to screw the tee shot up.  :)

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 11:53:41 AM »
The bunker short of the fairway less than 100 yards out that stands out to me is on the 17th hole at Ravisloe.  The image below is from Jud Tigerman's photo tour.  You kind of have to know it's there, but you can see the raised lip a bit.  It's actually quite small, and exists primarily (I assume) for aiming purposes.  The land rises a bit sharply right off the tee box such that you can't see the actual fairway from the tee.  The line is fairly obvious just from the trees on either side of the fairway, but the bunker is a nice touch.


Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers short of the fairway (within 100 yards of the tee)
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »
Joe,

One must remeber that fairway irrigation is a fairly recent development; I grew up playing a public course in Ma. with no fairway irrigation in the late 70's. A topped drive could easily run out as far as one hit with 200 yards of carry. Imagine the view of the scratch golfer who finds his perfect tee shot only a couiple of yards ahead of the cold topped one! I bet they loved top shot bunkers.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter