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Brent Hutto

Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« on: June 29, 2012, 09:06:30 AM »
Just wanted to mention here that I'm heading down to the Ocean Course this Sunday for my chance to play the course fairly close to the PGA Championship. I seem to make it there about every 3-1/2 years or so, on average, so this seemed like the right time for a revisit.

On the extremely remote chance any GCA'ers happen to be on the Island, I'm playing around 8am and would love company. I would say "around 8am before it gets so hot" but that would be a flat-out lie.

http://www.kiawahresort.com/golf/the-ocean-course/live-golf-cam/

Feel free to check out the live webcam of the 18th green around lunch time, I'll be sure to tip my hat to you!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:22:26 PM by Brent Hutto »

Phil McDade

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »
Brent:

I'm genuinely interested in some of the questions raised in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45553.0.html (essentially the difference between bunkers and waste areas at Kiawah)

...which was prompted by the contretemps examined in this thread (the adventures of Dustin Johnson at Whistling Straits):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45542.0.html


Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 10:46:53 AM »
Phil,

I will certainly report back on the "word" from Kiawah at this juncture. Based on Mike's comments the PGA may not have announced their final decision yet. I'm particularly curious to see the more bunker-like sand areas mentioned on that earlier thread. I do not recall that aspect from my previous visits (all prior to the 2010 work, I believe).

PCCraig

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »
Brent,

Enjoy your round and try to stay cool down there in the hot weather (although I've played TOC on a really hot day and it's not too bad as the course is exposed to wind and close to the water...making it feel slightly cooler).
H.P.S.

Phil McDade

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 11:03:40 AM »
Phil,

I will certainly report back on the "word" from Kiawah at this juncture. Based on Mike's comments the PGA may not have announced their final decision yet. I'm particularly curious to see the more bunker-like sand areas mentioned on that earlier thread. I do not recall that aspect from my previous visits (all prior to the 2010 work, I believe).

Thanks!

Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 11:04:15 AM »
I'm not one to always seek out caddies but I'm hoping the forecast 10mph prevailing breeze up the beach along with having someone else toting my bag will make it livable. When I played down there the first time it was upper-30's (Fahrenheit, that is) and raining but they were real good about sending someone out with warm, dry towels for us in the middle of each nine. Hopefully they'll be equally solicitous with keeping us hydrated this time.

Being a lifetime South Carolina boy I'm not too proud to walk in if it gets to the life threatening stage! On the plus side, the Kiawah forecast for Sunday is 10F cooler than my home 100 miles inland.

Howard Riefs

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 11:13:17 AM »
I'm not one to always seek out caddies but I'm hoping the forecast 10mph prevailing breeze up the beach along with having someone else toting my bag will make it livable. When I played down there the first time it was upper-30's (Fahrenheit, that is) and raining but they were real good about sending someone out with warm, dry towels for us in the middle of each nine. Hopefully they'll be equally solicitous with keeping us hydrated this time.


Brent,

Call up the Ocean Course now and request Mark Bloomer for your caddie. My wife and I had him on the bag last year, and definitely recommend him to anyone. Personable, knowledgeable and will keep your game in check in the wind and high temps. The only negative is that he's from Michigan -- but I'm willing to look past that.  (Insert smiley face here.)

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

RJ_Daley

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 11:54:53 AM »
I'll be looking forward to your assessment of how the PGA will approach the course as you find it, and what info about the Bs and WAs you glean during your time on the site.  I'm looking forward to the tournament, and hoping that the wind is a factor without being over the top, and that the heat is moderate and doesn't become the spoiler of seeing the best compete on that great course. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 09:46:59 PM »
Brent:

What tee are you planning to play?

WW

Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 09:12:07 PM »
To answer Wade's question "which tees", my plan was to play the up tees at 6,200 yards. However to my delight I found GCA'er Rob Miller was playing just 20 minutes after my tee time. Go figure, what are the odds of that? So I joined him on the Dye tees (6,500 yards) for a back and forth match until I splashed a ball on 17 to lose 2-and-1.

At 6,500 it didn't feel like that much longer course than I was expecting but after lunch I went back out solo from the 6,200 yard tees and played to within a couple strokes of my handicap. So it confirmed my long-time belief that the line between fun and frustration at this course is often a matter of one set of tees.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:56:27 AM by Brent Hutto »

Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 09:57:47 AM »
Regarding bunkers. there are more "formalized" bunkers than I recall from previous visits. By that I'm referring to bunkers separated from the larger sandy dunescape by at least a small border of grass. And many of these contained rakes. All of which would lead me to believe they're prepared to offer the PGA an option of playing certain bunkers as bunkers and the larger sandy acreage as natural waste areas. That said, the caddies told us that there was "zero chance" of the PGA Championship doing anything different. They seemed certain it will all be waste area.

A week or so ago the course experienced a freak storm that dumped 8" of rain on the course in just over 24 hours. So they're in the process of literally pumping water out of the lagoons and ponds on the course because they are so over-full that the bunkers can not drain into them. Therefore, the majority of the bunkers were anywhere from wet and hard packed to out and out muddy. I might have even seen a spot or two of standing water. Very difficult to play from (as Rob Miller can attest after he and I shared a Keystone Cops adventure on the 16th hole).

The rest of the course is in great shape. The Paspalum grass really thrives on heat, even humid heat. I've never seen putting greens grow so much between morning and afternoon. Our morning round was at 8:30am and when I went back out at 3:15pm it was like putting on different greens. Notably slower and even some grain to contend with that wasn't there in the AM round. Fairways and rough are lush, firm enough to offer some running shot opportunities but still slightly on the wet side on the holes not exposed to the oceanfront breezes. The holes like 15-18 out along the beach are just awesomely firm-and-fast while still having plenty of grass under the ball that lies are not tight by any means. Very fun and inviting combination in combination with the prevailing 8-14mph sea breezes.

The "largest" change, yet at the same time so subtle it took me a while to notice, is that the waste areas lining many of the Par 4 and Par 5 holes have had their interface with the course completely re-engineered since I was there is 2009. Many of these were flat bottomed, hard-packed sand areas running all or most of the length of a fairway with a 3-foot to 7-foot vertical wall of railroad ties offering a hard boundary. Previously a ball in the fairway could run right over to the precipice and either stop due the the slight "lip" of rough located there or fall off the wall and down onto the bunker floor.

Those walls have been mostly (or maybe entirely) removed and replaced with moderately steep embankments with "first cut" length rough. And the top edge is now rounded and cambered. So balls approaching an edge of the fairway obliquely will tend to keep turning outward once they are within a couple yards of the edge. I'm not talking about an "event horizon" like some of the pot bunkers you'll see in the UK where balls 30-40 yards away will swoop toward the hollow. But balls that in past years at the Ocean Course would likely have been nudged gently to avoid falling over the walls will now happily clamber down.

That said, there is now a non-zero chance of ball stopping on one of those slopes rather than making it all the way down onto the flat sand. I had that happen twice in my afternoon round and for me (especially given the nasty wet hardpan sand) it's a real bonus. I like the chance that makes encountering a waste area more likely but if you do, getting out may end up being only halfway difficult instead of trying to elevate at ball over a five or six foot vertical railroad-tie bulkhead staring you in the face.

There are also three new, huge pot bunkers on the 12th fairway. Basically it is a second echelon of pots just 30-40 yards behind and parallel to the two (or was it three?) that were already there. My afternoon caddie had an interesting story of how they came about, presumably true or perhaps apocryphal. From the way-back tees, into the prevailing wind, even strong amateur players can nowadays choose a line off the tee that will "bite off" more of the diagonal water hazard than Pete Dye originally envisioned. That lets them aim to the right (closer to the hole) and a straight or righty-fade tee shot bypasses the original bunkers. So on a visit prior to the 2010 changes he made to the course, Mr. Dye went out and watched some big hitters play the hole. He marked the area where they were landing those tee shots and now there are three quite large fairway bunkers with considerably tall front edges making a play at the green from the bunkers quite demanding.

Funnily enough, I was playing from the forward tees basically a half-mile or so (it seemed) in front of the tournament tees. I aimed right of the bunkers, got a little fade up into the breeze and could have sworn it landed safely in the fairway short and right of all the bunkers. But no, it was caught up in the one closest to the fairway. The caddie remarked that half the fun of those new bunkers is you can't really tell from the tee whether you went in them or not. You have to wait while walking around the water harzard then up the fairway quite a ways to find out if you're safe or not. I was not, it required a 60-degree wedge back into the fairway then an approach shot of decent length from there to the green. Cool feature, although like all such things it probably will be less in play for the Tour players than for anyone else.

P.S. Let me add one other, personal comment. I spent two nights in an off-island hotel plus my 36 holes (caddies both rounds) and lunch at the Ocean Course. It was a terribly, ridiculously expensive experience for what in the end was 11 hours total on the property. Sean Arble would be horrified! Honestly if I weren't saving up for a trip to England in a few weeks I would try to squeeze in another trip to Kiawah before the close down for the PGA Championship. The entire day and especially the afternoon round was a real "mountaintop experience" kind of thing. I would say with the sole exception of the day I visited Cypress Point and MPCC it was as wonderful a time as I've ever had on a golf course. Once in a great while, even "terribly, ridiculously expensive" can actually offer value commensurate with its cost. This was one of those occasions.

BigEdSC

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 01:13:55 PM »
sounds like TOC is getting in tournament shape.  I'm working as one of the walking scorers this time.  I worked one of the scoreboards during the Senior PGA.  It's going to be a great tournament.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 01:21:05 PM »
Good stuff there Brent, thanks for posting.  I am looking forward to attending the PGA this year, but your post makes me look forward to playing their again as well. 

Glad you and Rob had a great time! 

Phil McDade

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 01:38:49 PM »
Brent:

Thanks for the detailed update -- particularly intrigued by the slower green speeds of the afternoon vs. morning rounds, which presumably would make for some interesting differences at the PGA championship.

Just to confirm from your conversations with caddies -- it appears that any non-green/non-fairway/non-rough areas of the course will be played "through the green?" Is that a first for a major?

Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »
For the record, my personal estimate would not be "zero" as to the chances of the PGA putting rakes in the bunker-bunkers and playing them as such. That's just the opinion of the two caddies in our group. I think Kiawah staff in general take a lot of pride in the distinctiveness of their course and feel very strongly (as do I for that matter) in playing it as it was designed and intended. But the PGA of America will basically have carte blanche that week and are not necessarily beholden to the original intent of the design, right?

My second caddie (afternoon round) was commenting on the current unfortunate wetness/gloppiness of many bunkers. I may be misquoting but I believe he said something along the lines of "Actually, playing a wedge off that wet hardpan isn't too bad you just have to play it a certain way that most people have never learned".

For the better players among us, do you think that's a shot the PGA Championship field will by and large have in their bag? Is it really just one of those things like the low spinner or the extreme knockdown that's pretty easy for elite players even though double-digit weekend golfers haven't a clue?

jeffwarne

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Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 09:01:55 PM »
For the record, my personal estimate would not be "zero" as to the chances of the PGA putting rakes in the bunker-bunkers and playing them as such. That's just the opinion of the two caddies in our group. I think Kiawah staff in general take a lot of pride in the distinctiveness of their course and feel very strongly (as do I for that matter) in playing it as it was designed and intended. But the PGA of America will basically have carte blanche that week and are not necessarily beholden to the original intent of the design, right?

My second caddie (afternoon round) was commenting on the current unfortunate wetness/gloppiness of many bunkers. I may be misquoting but I believe he said something along the lines of "Actually, playing a wedge off that wet hardpan isn't too bad you just have to play it a certain way that most people have never learned".

For the better players among us, do you think that's a shot the PGA Championship field will by and large have in their bag? Is it really just one of those things like the low spinner or the extreme knockdown that's pretty easy for elite players even though double-digit weekend golfers haven't a clue?

Yes
much easier than soft sand for elite players
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Hutto

Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 09:33:17 PM »
Call up the Ocean Course now and request Mark Bloomer for your caddie. My wife and I had him on the bag last year, and definitely recommend him to anyone. Personable, knowledgeable and will keep your game in check in the wind and high temps. The only negative is that he's from Michigan -- but I'm willing to look past that.  (Insert smiley face here.)

Howard,

I did remember to call the day before and request Mark. He was scheduled as caddie master that day but swapped out to bag for myself and Rob M. There are two kinds of caddies you can get doing a double-bag in my experience. The ones where you constantly have to wait while he finishes with the other guy and the kind who seem to be in two places at once by some kind of "looper magic". Mark is sure in the latter category. I guess it's really some combination of hustle and knowing what he's doing but it's extremely welcome...all my patience gets used up dealing with my own poor play with little left over for caddies who can't quite keep up!

Different guy single-bagging with me in the afternoon and he was a blast. Starting with the approach to #2 he asked if I wanted him to hand me clubs vs. give me yardages and I told him to just go ahead and hand me whatever he thought would. I have almost never done that, being more of a control-freak, but it was fun. Not only were my good shots the right yardage, my bad shots seemed to almost always end up in a very playable position (with a couple of exceptions for really nasty pull-hook jobs). And we breezed around the front nine in like an hour fifteen which he seemed to think was pretty fun.

PCCraig

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Re: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 08:23:21 AM »
Brent,

Thanks for the follow up and your detailed thoughts on TOC. Can't wait to watch the big guys play it in August!
H.P.S.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: Ocean Course Six Weeks Before PGA Championship
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 09:44:08 AM »
Howard,

I did remember to call the day before and request Mark. He was scheduled as caddie master that day but swapped out to bag for myself and Rob M. There are two kinds of caddies you can get doing a double-bag in my experience. The ones where you constantly have to wait while he finishes with the other guy and the kind who seem to be in two places at once by some kind of "looper magic". Mark is sure in the latter category. I guess it's really some combination of hustle and knowing what he's doing but it's extremely welcome...all my patience gets used up dealing with my own poor play with little left over for caddies who can't quite keep up!

Brent,

A great recap of your day on the Ocean Course.  Very glad to hear that Mark lived up to expectations. 

My favorite memory with Mark on the bag was arriving at the tee on #4.  He casually pointed out to the fairway, where an 8-foot alligator was resting comfortably just across the marsh.  "He's your aiming point."

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

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