[Chris_Hufnagel]

I have a question - perhaps a dumb question...

I just got back from five days at Bandon Dunes - my fourth trip and it gets better every time.

To answer the famous, "If you had 10 rounds at Bandon Dunes, how would you split them up?" - here is what I did and I don't regret one round...

Old Macdonald - 4
Pacific Dunes - 4
Bandon Trails - 1
Bandon Dunes - 1
Bandon Preserve - Not open yet unfortunately, but I did walk all 13 holes one afternoon after I finished my golf for the day.  It is going to be spectacular...I love the look and feel and especially how C&C tied the tees to the greens with mown walk-ways...

I don't remember ever seeing a statistics about rounds played on the four courses - I am not sure if Kemper Sports even releases this type of data - but anecdotally I have heard from caddies at the resort that Bandon Dunes is the preferred course at the resort along with Pacific Dunes and that Bandon Trails is the least played course.  I have also read that Old Macdonald has been very well-received, but probably the most polarizing of the courses given the boldness of the design and scale.  Therefore, my conclusion is - and if I am wrong, please let me know - that Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes are #1 or #2 for rounds played, followed by Old Macdonald, with Trails coming in fourth.  I know that Trails has some natural headwinds given the fact it isn't on the ocean and it is probably the most demanding walk at the resort - but I like that course more and more each time I see it.

I personally rank them...

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Old Macdonald (close second)
3. Bandon Trails
4. Bandon Dunes (distant fourth)

I could probably easily, and without regret, remove Bandon Dunes from the rota.  Other than for a couple of holes - #4 and #16 - I really don't have much love for the course which is the namesake for one of my favorite places in the world!  I will admit though that some of the new revetting they are doing on several of the bunkers looks pretty amazing...

Here comes my question, while out there this past month, I really noticed a big difference in the turf conditions - especially between Bandon Dunes and the rest of the courses.  I know March isn't an ideal growing season to be drawing conclusions, but the fairways at Bandon were much softer and thick versus the fairways at the other three.  I don't know if this is always the case, but the turf conditions were dramatically different at Bandon Dunes.  I do know they progressively changed the seed mixture from Bandon Dunes up through Old Macdonald and that Bandon Dunes is original course at the resort - so perhaps just maturity is the difference.

So, my question is...

Could the more typical golfer (not GCA junkies like us) be more likely to prefer Bandon Dunes in part because the precision needed on shots from the fairway and green surrounds is not as high on that course versus the others and therefore may have more positive feelings towards the course because he/she had better shots which contributed to their experience?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

So, my question is...

Could the more typical golfer (not GCA junkies like us) be more likely to prefer Bandon Dunes in part because the precision needed on shots from the fairway and green surrounds is not as high on that course versus the others and therefore may have more positive feelings towards the course because he/she had better shots which contributed to their experience?

The more typical golfer will prefer BD because you can see the ocean a lot and for that reason alone it gets the love it does more than the others. They will likely have no appreciation playing a Redan, Biarritz or Road hole. Thats ok, not everyone needs to. I think that is what makes the resort so great, there is something for everyone.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thanks Emile and I totally agree with that, clearly Bandon Dunes has a lot going for it, but from a architectural standpoint and just general "fun" standpoint - I personally feel it is so far behind the other three.  

I know this is just my opinion, but I was trying to figure out other reasons by Bandon Dunes rates so high with some and thought perhaps there might be some reasons I hadn't previously thought of...

[Jim Tang]

I feel there is a lot of width at Bandon, giving guys more room off the tee.  It is also less punishing than some of the other courses, so I'm sure guys have a better vibe/feeling in relation to their score.  Are there more tee box options at Bandon?  Last time I was there, I thought you basically had only 2 options at PD.  As mentioned, the epic views don't hurt either, although PD has those too.

I agree Bandon has managed to build 5 courses on the same property, but give each of them a completely different feel, look and style of play, thus, providing something for everyone.

I've not been to Pinehurst, but, many of their couses seem similar to me.

[Pete_Pittock]

Chris,
If you take wind out of the equation (a serious flaw if you plan to golf at Bandon) golf is simplest at Bandon Dunes. There, if you want to get to point A, aim at point A.There are few "goofy" holes. Of the four courses at the resort, Bandon Dunes is probably closest to their home course.

(My personal 10 round breakdown is Pacific -4; Trails - 4; Old Mac-1, BD-1.)

[Chris_Hufnagel]

"closest to their home course" makes a lot of sense to me and I hadn't really thought of it in those terms...

[Jason Topp]

People shoot lower scores at Bandon Dunes because they make more putts

[William_G]

Bandon also gets a lot of play due to its routing of 2 nine hole loops.

Lots of guys play a quick 9, back or front, both returning you to the Puffin Lounge for a cocktail and/or a shuttle to the airport.

[Carl Nichols]

 It's been a few years, but the par fives at BD seemed like the easiest place to collect a couple of birdies, which would contribute to people having the best vibe/feeling about their scores.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thanks for the replies and I agree with the various reasons everyone has posted - what I was really trying to get at (and I probably didn't articulate it very well) was...

If there is a significant difference in the turf (thick/lush vs. firm/tight), could this possibly play into golfers preference (conscious or subconscious) for the courses?

There are a lot of assumptions built into this...

1. The turf is actually different - it certainly played different two weeks ago based on my observations...
2. Turf conditions matter to the general golfing public
3. Playing better impacts one's opinion of a golf course
4. The average golfer may not appreciate firm/tight/fast conditions or may not like the premium placed on solid contact with the golf ball that such conditions dictate

[Terry Lavin]

Bandon also gets a lot of play due to its routing of 2 nine hole loops.

Lots of guys play a quick 9, back or front, both returning you to the Puffin Lounge for a cocktail and/or a shuttle to the airport.

This is spot-on. I can play 27 easily so nine on BD is the way to end the day.  And no, I don't think the turf varies to any extent that would lead to a preference one way or the other.

[Tim Pitner]

Chris,

It's been a few years since I was last out there, but I do not recall the turf at Bandon Dunes to be "thick/lush" or significantly different from the other courses.  I don't doubt your recent observations, but I don't think that's been the case over time and therefore that wouldn't account for the continued popularity of BD.  My understanding is that much of BD is not built on sandy soil, although I think that's true of Bandon Trails as well.  

As an aside, when I first went out there, soon after Pacific Dunes opened, I thought the turf at BD was noticeably more linksy than at PD--I think that was purely a function of PD being new.  

[Garland Bayley]

A friend of mine shot his lowest round anywhere, anytime on Bandon Dunes.

A hack like me even made back to back birdies there.

[Aaron McMaster]

Thanks for the replies and I agree with the various reasons everyone has posted - what I was really trying to get at (and I probably didn't articulate it very well) was...

If there is a significant difference in the turf (thick/lush vs. firm/tight), could this possibly play into golfers preference (conscious or subconscious) for the courses?

There are a lot of assumptions built into this...

1. The turf is actually different - it certainly played different two weeks ago based on my observations...
2. Turf conditions matter to the general golfing public
3. Playing better impacts one's opinion of a golf course
4. The average golfer may not appreciate firm/tight/fast conditions or may not like the premium placed on solid contact with the golf ball that such conditions dictate

Chris it's been about 4 years since I was out there but even at that time there was a significant amount of annual bluegrass building up on BD.  That plays a lot different than fine fescue.  No idea how that relates to why more people like BD, I do think it was the easiest of the three that were available to play when I was there.

[William_G]

A friend of mine shot his lowest round anywhere, anytime on Bandon Dunes.

A hack like me even made back to back birdies there.

Must have played the Orange Tees

[Garland Bayley]

A friend of mine shot his lowest round anywhere, anytime on Bandon Dunes.

A hack like me even made back to back birdies there.

Must have played the Orange Tees

You know me, black or orange. Wouldn't be caught dead on green or yellow.

[William_G]

A friend of mine shot his lowest round anywhere, anytime on Bandon Dunes.

A hack like me even made back to back birdies there.

Must have played the Orange Tees

You know me, black or orange. Wouldn't be caught dead on green or yellow.

exactly, LOL

[Jerry Kluger]

I must respectfully disagree with your premise.  I have met many players who are not into gca and went to Bandon and their favorite course was Bandon Trails and I think the reason is that it is the most similar to what they are used to. They want to say that PD is their favorite because it is so highly rated while OM is so big and wide that it is also the most forgiving which many players really like.  BD is no slouch but is not as memorable as the others and for that reason I believe it is the least favorite.  But does it really matter as you could make a trip out there and play only one of the courses and still have a great time.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I must respectfully disagree with your premise.  I have met many players who are not into gca and went to Bandon and their favorite course was Bandon Trails and I think the reason is that it is the most similar to what they are used to. They want to say that PD is their favorite because it is so highly rated while OM is so big and wide that it is also the most forgiving which many players really like.  BD is no slouch but is not as memorable as the others and for that reason I believe it is the least favorite.  But does it really matter as you could make a trip out there and play only one of the courses and still have a great time.

Jerry, I am not sure I actually had a premise - rather a question.  The question was in regards to what I perceived to be a difference in turf conditions and could that impact a players feeling towards the courses.  I think the courses at Bandon are a unique study in architecture as they are all certainly all world class and all on a contiguous 1,200 acres - a pretty unique set.  I was simply trying to look beyond the obvious reasons in picking a favorite...

As for Bandon Dunes being considered the "least favorite" at the resort - I am sure this feeling is held by some, but not something I have heard very often - perhaps I just have a bad data set...

Last, I actually do think it matters - without a doubt the resort is an amazing place, but if I made the trip out there and was constrained to only play Bandon Dunes on a trip and not step a foot on Pacific Dunes or Old Macdonald - I would surely be sad for the experience that I missed...

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

Yes, the turf on Bandon Dunes is quite a bit different ... partly because of the way the course was built, partly because of the seed mix used [even though it was the same as Pacific Dunes] ... and partly just because the Poa annua has had 2-3 years longer to take over on the oldest of the courses.  On fescue, the purest turf is always going to be the newest course.

I don't think the turf conditions have much to do with player preference, though.  The only way it might have an affect is if the greens are SOFTER at Bandon Dunes because of the higher Poa annua population, which lets golfers hit and hold the greens more easily.  But, I think it's always been clear out there that the number of ocean views on each course are the main driver of preference, more than the architecture.

I have not seen the round counts for each course for a few years now.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thanks Tom - I appreciate the response.

One quick question if you don't mind, I know that Pacific Dunes originally had many hidden tees and I believe that many are no longer in existence - mainly because of the maintenance needed to keep them up, but are there any hidden tees at Old Macdonald?  I was looking at places where the landscape might have provided an opportunity, but could not find any obvious ones - perhaps 'Short'?

For what it is worth, I think one of the hardest holes I have ever seen, and certainly of the most intimidating tee shots, was from the hidden back tee on the 18th hole at Pacific Dunes - that was an amazing finishing hole...

[William_G]

But, I think it's always been clear out there that the number of ocean views on each course are the main driver of preference, more than the architecture.

Other places where that is true?

thanks in advance

[William_G]

Thanks Tom - I appreciate the response.

One quick question if you don't mind, I know that Pacific Dunes originally had many hidden tees and I believe that many are no longer in existence - mainly because of the maintenance needed to keep them up, but are there any hidden tees at Old Macdonald?  I was looking at places where the landscape might have provided an opportunity, but could not find any obvious ones - perhaps 'Short'?

I agree that "Short" is a unfortunately constraining name for this particular hole given the improved perspective of the view if it were named "Medium"

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks Tom - I appreciate the response.

One quick question if you don't mind, I know that Pacific Dunes originally had many hidden tees and I believe that many are no longer in existence - mainly because of the maintenance needed to keep them up, but are there any hidden tees at Old Macdonald?  I was looking at places where the landscape might have provided an opportunity, but could not find any obvious ones - perhaps 'Short'?

Chris,

Those extra tees at Pacific weren't really much of a maintenance expense as far as keeping the grass.  But, so few people played them that some were just abandoned and the gorse took them over -- for example, a couple of tees up and to the right on #15.  It was a great angle from over there, but too far out of the way for people to walk.  As I recall, you could even use one of them to play #13 if you were skipping over there after #3.

As for Old Mac, there is so much short grass out there that it's more like The Sheep Ranch or Ballyneal ... if you wanted to, I'm sure you could set it up well over 7,500 yards.  But, there are no "hidden" tees because there really aren't many formal tees at all.

[Bill Brightly]

Chris,

I think you are on to something that matters to many golfers, excluding GCA junkies like us. I found the turf at PD to be the firmest and therefore the hardest to score on. As a parkland course player, I found PD the hardest to use my short game, and my scores reflected that. (The best example is me biting my tongue as I struggled to make a par on the damn 16th hole...) So to the extent that golfers measure their enjoyment of a course by how effectively they can play it, I say the "average" player gets most frustrated by PD. The turf at BD was much softer and easier, as I recall.

To threadjack a bit, I was curious with your comment that OM was the most polarizing of the four courses. I played it in the GCA event last May when it first opened and loved it, of course, But I wonder if the resort does anything to help educate guests about CB Macdonald. Do they leave reading material in the rooms? Anything special on the scorecards or yardage books? Do the caddies know the hole names and the original holes/courses where Macdonald was inspired? I have always felt this knowledge would help the average first time guest enjoy it more.

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