The impediment to centerline bunkers is

[Matthew Petersen]

Talking Stick North has beauties:  #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.

#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.  

Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.  

The common denominator?  All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.

The irony?  That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!

As a golfer with little no classic course experience, I spent my entire adult golfing life playing Phoenix area courses built post 1980 and thus, the centerline bunker was an unknown feature to me... until I first played Talking Stick North.   I should thank C&C for helping to bring back this feature to the modern golf course.

Chambers Bay #14 features a diagonal fairway with a pretty neat bunker in the middle that defines the strategy of the hole. Either play safe to the right and face a long shot to the green, or go for it left with a longer tee carry and a much shorter shot to the green.

And yet on many of the newer courses, they are everywhere. Off the top of my head, you can find them on at least one hole at:

Talking Stick North
WeKoPa Cholla
WeKoPa Saguaro
Golf Club at Estrella
Raven at Verrado
Southern Dunes
TPC Stadium

[Jason Topp]

And yet on many of the newer courses, they are everywhere. Off the top of my head, you can find them on at least one hole at:

Talking Stick North
WeKoPa Cholla
WeKoPa Saguaro
Golf Club at Estrella
Raven at Verrado
Southern Dunes
TPC Stadium

That is my impression as well.  Without doing an actual review of yardage books or photos I believe that they feature significantly in the majority of the last 20 newer courses that I have played.

[Mark Pearce]

New courses over here I have played with CL bunkers: Crail Craighead, Close House Colt (several, really good ones), Renaissance Club.
New courses over here without:  Slaley Hall Hunting, Slaley Hall Priestman, Ramside.

There is a complete corellation here with quality.  Three good to excellent courses, three crap ones.

[Chris DeNigris]

A couple standout for me- The 2nd at Ballyhack has 3 of them, somewhat staggered...and plenty of width to accomodate various options. Very fun hole because of them.

Southern Dunes (AZ) has one on a tough par 4 on the back nine that is devilish.

One I just hit into the other day was the 2nd at Morgan Hill.

I think one of the reasons mid-handicappers like me with serious driver directional control issues don't mind em is because my "strategy" on many is to usually aim right at it...for obvious reasons.  And if I happen to be in one...well, a moral victory  

[Kalen Braley]

Even my local muni, which was renovated a few years back has one.

Its a lot better in person...review is soon to come.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=47.659109,-117.085829&spn=0.002103,0.003409&t=h&z=19

P.S.  I've always wondered.  If a centerline bunker is small enough like a principals nose....do you really need to put a bunch of extra width in?

[Matthew Petersen]

Southern Dunes (AZ) has one on a tough par 4 on the back nine that is devilish.

That's the 15th hole. A long right-to-left par 4 where the drive plays downhill and the second shot uphill. The fairway slopes right-to-left with a bunker center-right in the fairway. You can find a flat lie short and right of the bunker, but that's making the hole quite a bit longer. Someone who draws the golf ball meanwhile will enjoy aiming one at the center bunker and peeling it off. That will save some distance on the hole, but the left side of the fairway is much lower than the right, so you are playing much more uphill on your second and it's harder to find a flat lie down there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I think the main impediment to centerline bunkers on American courses has been -- fairway width.  When you have a course with fairways that are consistently 25-30 yards wide, it is difficult to integrate a centerline bunker that fits.  If play to either side of the bunker is really going to be a viable option, you need at least 50 yards of width in the landing area [including the bunker], and that doesn't fit very well with a bunch of other holes that are half as wide.

Tom,

I wonder how many centerline bunker complexes were lost when fairways on existing courses were narrowed to accomodate automated irrigation systems.

If the trend to remove trees and restore fairway width takes hold, I wonder how many centerline bunker complexes will be restored or introduced.

Another good example of a centerline bunker feature is # 8 at Hidden Creek, with it's huge fairway.

I know that Archie Struthers isn't high on that hole, but, I think it's a wonderful feature, visually and from a playability perspective.

Certainly, choices at the tee can't be ignored.

To carry or lay up >

To aim right, left or right at it ?

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Pat, love the use of center lines , did two sets at Twisted Dune .  

Think the bunker design at Hidden Creek is beautiful on #8 , natural and rumpled.  Just don't  see he risk reward for long hitters given the green lol !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey Pat, love the use of center lines , did two sets at Twisted Dune . 

Think the bunker design at Hidden Creek is beautiful on #8 , natural and rumpled.  Just don't  see he risk reward for uo long hitters given the green lol !

Archie,

Some questions.

What do you think of the introduction of the centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek ?

What prompted you to introduce centerline bunkers at Twisted Dune ?

Why did you introduce them on more than one hole ?

[archie_struthers]

 

Loved the randomness of bunkers in the old country. Given the genre was more Irish than American at Twisted Dune , wanted to be a little quirky, hence the centerline on # 4 and the smaller pots on #12.  Tend to think the second shot on five pars is often under thought. Certainly the bunkers as positioned make you pay attention.  

In retrospect, think I played it a little too close to the vest at Twisted, as crazy as that may sound. When I played there recently kept thinking of ways to tinker. If I hit the lottery Friday will ask Eric B if we can do some work there next winter on my dime. He's already built a new tee that we had envisioned on #11 and it makes the second shot there semi blind .  Would love to play there soon with you there soon before it gets too busy .  Lots of birdies and bogeys out there!  We can surely get a good game and barbeque set up .


Think the bunker at Hidden Creek will work well. Might entice a few more players to challenge the big pit  in front of th
e green. It's a real good par five and will be better now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Would love to take you up on your offer, but, my MRI on Sunday is going to dictate my playing schedule for the next few months.

[Mike_Clayton]

We did a few at Royal Queensland - a course with particularly wide fairways.
Some of the members hated them because they caught their 'perfect drives'.
The club held was a information night about a year after the courses opened and one member asked me about the 'ridiculous' bunker at the 9th hole. It is about 265 yards off the tee.
There is 30 yards of fairway right of the bunker and 25 left of it.He agreed that  30 yards was a reasonable width for a fairway.
I suggested that if we just grew all of the left side as rough then the bunker would not be in the middle of the fairway but,rather, in the left rough and 'it wouldn't be unfair'
'I had never thought of it like that' It was a nice concession.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

In my limited experience, my observation is that golfers tend to view the golf course, solely, from their playing perspective.

Rarely does a golfer view a golf course through the eyes of the broad spectrum of golfers, choosing instead to narrow the focus to their game.

Your response was well thought out, even if it was spontaneous.

What prompted you to want to introduce centerline bunker complexes ?

Do you feel, that restored width on older courses could lead to the reintroduction of more centerline bunker complexes ?

[Tom Yost]

.. my "strategy" on many is to usually aim right at it...for obvious reasons.  And if I happen to be in one...well, a moral victory  

My strategy exactly!

Southern Dunes #15 is a good one.  You need to stay left of the bunker to get the tee shot as close to the waste area as possible to have a decent shot at the uphill green. But from the tee it looks so much more inviting to the right but that leaves a very long approach with possible interference from the tree.

[john_stiles]

The original Augusta National was chock-a-block full of centerline bunkers.

The first centerline to bite the dust might have been the centerline bunker at the present 11th. The story was that Col. Jones abhorred the bunker at this hole and obviously would have had the ear of his son Bobby.

[Mike_Clayton]

Patrick

We did them at the 2nd,7th,9th, 12th,15th and 18th holes. The fairways at those holes are probably all between 60 and 80 yards wide - so  we made the space to build them. Aside from 12 which is a drivable four for long hitters but a 3 iron and wedge for me they are tee shots that can easily be played with a driver - you just decide to go over, left,right or short. There is always plenty of space around them if you want to avoid them but the angles are not as good from far away from them.
We did them because the holes were wide enough to do them well and bunkers in the road of where you want to go can be so much more interesting than just having them down the sides. The problem is golfers think that if they hit 'straight' they should be rewarded.
For me well placed bunkers in the fairways simply make the game much more interesting. Of course the key is not to overuse them but I don't think we did that at RQ.
I am sure if old courses restored width they could introduce or reintroduce the concept. It's fun if they are taken in the right spirit.