Are there any truly great golf courses in Canada?

[Barry Samuels]

It seems like there is little discussion of Canandian golf courses, and this is a subject about which I know nothing.  Please enlighten me.....

[Mark Saltzman]

Define "truly great"

[Harris Nepon]

Plenty of great courses. Just don't get recognition like the USA ones do. As most things Canadian. Except for Hockey, we are way better at that then anyone.

[Bill_McBride]

Capilano!

Looking forward to Sagebrush, Marine Drive, Royal Colwood and Victoria Golf Club in June.

[Carl Nichols]

This isn't my thread, but I would define "truly great" as "consensus top 50 in the world."

[Howard Riefs]

It seems like there is little discussion of Canandian golf courses...

Wait until the photo tours of Cabot Links start. It certainly looks truly great.

http://cabotlinks.com/


For discussion purposes, Golfweek's 2011 Canadian courses lists:

Classic -- http://golfweek.com/news/2011/apr/14/golfweeks-best-canadian-classic-courses-pre-1960/

Modern -- http://golfweek.com/news/2011/apr/14/golfweeks-best-canadian-modern-courses/

[Will Lozier]

It seems like there is little discussion of Canandian golf courses, and this is a subject about which I know nothing.  Please enlighten me.....

Go to the tip of Nova Scotia - Highland Links!  I wouldn't put Banff in the "Great" category but Highland Links to me is truly that - GREAT!

Cheers

[PCCraig]

I'm hoping Highland Links & Cabot will be great...

[Matt Bosela]

This isn't my thread, but I would define "truly great" as "consensus top 50 in the world."

I think it would be tough to find a Canadian course worthy of that designation.

I do think there are a few that are worthy of top 100 in the world status, including St. George's, Hamilton and Highlands Links.  Many believe that Cabot will make its way into the discussion when all 18 holes open later this year.

[Jim Franklin]

I can't wait to get to Vancouver this summer to find out. I hear Sagebrush is terrific. The website looks fantastic.

[Bill_McBride]

Looked at the top modern courses on Golf Week link.   Doesn't Sagebrush look a lot like Old MacDonald?

[Matt Bosela]

Looked at the top modern courses on Golf Week link.   Doesn't Sagebrush look a lot like Old MacDonald?

There are some similarities Bill, especially when it comes to the wide driving corridors and huge green complexes.

The term "great" obviously means different things to different people.  I will say this though: Sagebrush is my favourite Canadian golf course and unquestionably the most fun - I imagine only Cabot will give it a run for its money in the 'fun' department and it is no coincidence that Rod Whitman designed both.

For those interested, or for those who may have overlooked the thread, here is my GCA photo tour of Sagebrush: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0.html

[Will MacEwen]

Matt also did a good photo tour of Hamilton/Ancaster. I have never played it but it seems to garner the most praise, with Highland Links. 

[Bill_McBride]

Looked at the top modern courses on Golf Week link.   Doesn't Sagebrush look a lot like Old MacDonald?

There are some similarities Bill, especially when it comes to the wide driving corridors and huge green complexes.

The term "great" obviously means different things to different people.  I will say this though: Sagebrush is my favourite Canadian golf course and unquestionably the most fun - I imagine only Cabot will give it a run for its money in the 'fun' department and it is no coincidence that Rod Whitman designed both.

For those interested, or for those who may have overlooked the thread, here is my GCA photo tour of Sagebrush: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0.html

Coming for the KP?

[Mark Saltzman]

Well, if the definition of "truly great" is "consensus world-top 50" than I am fairly confident in saying there are no truly great courses in Canada.  Especially given that there are only maybe 20 courses that are consensus world top-50.

Looking at the GW lists, these are the nominees:

Modern

The National GC of Canada - Always ranked among the top-3 courses in the country, this George/Tom Fazio design as an absolute brute.  Very comfortable routing over a hilly piece of terrain very close to Toronto.  There is a real sense of isolation on each hole.  Tremendous hole variety is sometimes over-shadowed because of the course's difficulty / maintenance meld.  Recent changes have taken the few breather holes and made them extremely difficult - a poor change in my opinion.  A very good golf course, with few, if any, obvious faults.  No way it is truly great.

http://www.nationalgolf.ca/


Devil's Paintbrush - One of the better faux links efforts I have seen, complete with fescue tees/fairways, nasty pot bunkers, shots played over stone walls and extreme greens.  Again, very good, but no way it is truly great.

http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/devils-paintbrush-golf-course-review.html


Rocky Crest - This may be my favourite modern in Canada, but the corporate feel (even though it is cottage country) and the dubious conditioning keeps off of the top-lists of some.  A phenomenal routing through large areas of lake/wetlands/ large rock formations, though there is perhaps too much emphasis placed on elevated teeing positions.  A great example of simple strategic design in an exceptional setting.


Beacon Hall - http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/01/beacon-hall-golf-club-review.html


Muskoka Bay Club - http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/muskoka-bay-club-course-review.html


Sagebrush - Haven't seen it.  Matt Bosela's Tour: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0.html


Coppinwood - One of the best Fazio's I've seen, but he doesn't have anything consensus top-50.  

http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/coppinwood-golf-club-course-review.html


Classic - If Canada has anything that it truly great it is one of its classic courses.

Highlands Links - GCA's own Ian Andrew has been working on restoring this Stanley Thompson design for the last couple of years.  Haven't seen it, but it may be the course with the best chance of being described as truly great.

http://www.highlandslinksgolf.com/


Hamilton (Ancaster) - Of the courses I've seen in Canada, this one has the best chance of being world top-50, but not in its current form.  If restored I believe that this course would deservedly place amongst the world's best.  Current bunkers feel small in scale, many bunkers have been lost over time (and some poorly placed ones added) and the mowing lines are among the worst I've seen.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44318.html


St. George's - Another Thompson work that has recently been restored by Ian Andrew.  I have not seen it in its current form, but even before the restoration I felt it was the best golf course in Canada.


The following I haven't seen but could be in the running...

Capilano - http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=38375.0

Jasper Park Lodge - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/canada/jasperpark1/

[Matt Bosela]

Looked at the top modern courses on Golf Week link.   Doesn't Sagebrush look a lot like Old MacDonald?

There are some similarities Bill, especially when it comes to the wide driving corridors and huge green complexes.

The term "great" obviously means different things to different people.  I will say this though: Sagebrush is my favourite Canadian golf course and unquestionably the most fun - I imagine only Cabot will give it a run for its money in the 'fun' department and it is no coincidence that Rod Whitman designed both.

For those interested, or for those who may have overlooked the thread, here is my GCA photo tour of Sagebrush: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41154.0.html

Coming for the KP?

I'm not able to get away that week, unfortunately.  You are going to love the course Bill!  Can't wait to hear your thoughts when you get back.

[Frank M]

In my mind Highlands Links is in the world top 50. The only thing holding it back are maintenance and location.

[Kris Shreiner]

Mark S,

Highlands Links, particularly as Ian Andrew countinues to recapture what was there during its early evolution, will return to being great, though it is probably there now. While it may not rank currently in the World Top 50 (whatever that constitutes?) and doesn't have the presentation budget enjoyed by most of those upper-tier, Top 50 facilities, from the opinions of plenty of folks, with far more golf architecture acumen than I, it is generally acknowledged as being in that elite class.

Cheers,
Kris

[John_Conley]

Well, if the definition of "truly great" is "consensus world-top 50" than I am fairly confident in saying there are no truly great courses in Canada.  Especially given that there are only maybe 20 courses that are consensus world top-50.

Mark, I believe you are using the word "consensus" in place of "unanimous".

If 20/50/100/1000 people vote on courses, 50 will make the top 50.  This is a consensus (majority of opinion).  In a sentence, "a consensus of the group of panelists is that....."

There may be only twenty courses that everyone agrees are Top 50.  I agree with that statement.  That makes those twenty "unanimous" Top 50 courses, not consensus.

[Mark Saltzman]

John, now we get to talk semantics!

My understanding is that consensus could mean 'widespread opinion,' not just majority of opinion.  I guess we have to define widespread next, but I'm not going to bother.

In your example of 1000 voters, of course I agree there will be a top-50 and 50 courses will be in that top-50.  But does that mean that a course is necessarily a consensus top-50?  Couldn't it be that ever single panelist voted it to be the 60th greatest course, but based on that average rating it could actually fall into the top-50?  Similarly, couldn't you have a course that receives several top-10 votes and many more 100ish votes and it still be in the top-50?

It would seem to me that neither of these examples would give you a consensus top-50 course even if it is a top-50 ranked course.

Maybe there are more than 20 courses that most (widespread opinion?) would say are top-50, but it wouldn't be many more.

Is St Andrew's consensus top-50?

[Tom_Doak]

Well, if the definition of "truly great" is "consensus world-top 50" than I am fairly confident in saying there are no truly great courses in Canada.  Especially given that there are only maybe 20 courses that are consensus world top-50.

Mark, I believe you are using the word "consensus" in place of "unanimous".

If 20/50/100/1000 people vote on courses, 50 will make the top 50.  This is a consensus (majority of opinion).  In a sentence, "a consensus of the group of panelists is that....."

There may be only twenty courses that everyone agrees are Top 50.  I agree with that statement.  That makes those twenty "unanimous" Top 50 courses, not consensus.

John:

I think he was just using "consensus" to mean that the majority of rankings had the same course in the top 50, and/or that the course has stayed in the top 50 for multiple rankings.  And I believe the answer to that is, not quite.  Highlands and St. George's have both been consistently in the top-100 lists for many years now, but not consistently in the top 50.

I haven't seen either course since Ian started working on them, so perhaps I would think more highly of them than I did twenty years ago ... both were given an 8 in The Confidential Guide, I believe.

[John_Conley]

Mark, you are correct that a course could be voted #60 by every panelist and show up as #40 even though nobody has it that high.  The discussion then shifts from words and their meaning to statistics and how they are processed.  I'm just pointing out that consensus and unanimous are two different things.  This time of year the media will call players "consensus" All-Americans in basketball, but that doesn't mean they made everybody's list or even had everyone's vote for a certain list.  (AP had a unanimous AA this year after several seasons without.)

Tom, that's what consensus means.  I don't believe there are only twenty courses that qualify, so I figured he was using some more stringent criteria.  (Like possibly unanimous.)

Anyway, to the point of the thread.  I think it illustrates how hard subjective terms are.  To me, there are far more than just 50 "truly great" courses in the world.  Canada, based on what I believe to be true, certainly has some truly great courses.  Cape Breton is mentioned above and all credible reports I've heard are that it certainly qualifies.  There is traction on the other side of the country for one of the older BC courses.  And the possibility of a few upstarts.  Rank-and-file folks would deem Devil's Paintbrush or Devil's Pulpit great as well, although some will say that doesn't equate to truly great.

I'm always more comfortable using absolutes.  My decile rating system (which admittedly is far from ubiquitous) certainly has worked for the lion's share of all courses and Top 100 lists and the Doak Rating scale certainly work to help people discern from degrees of excellence.

Subjective terms don't work well for me because they first have to be defined.

[Will Lozier]

Highlands Links - GCA's own Ian Andrew has been working on restoring this Stanley Thompson design for the last couple of years.  Haven't seen it, but it may be the course with the best chance of being described as truly great.

http://www.highlandslinksgolf.com/

All of these strict definitions are nonsense when you play Highland Links...because it is a truly great golf experience on truly great land with a truly great routing with many many truly great holes.  I would have gone round a third time in a day (having already walked round twice in six hours) if I didn't have a honeymoon dinner reservation at the Celtic Lodge. 

[Garland Bayley]

Looked at the top modern courses on Golf Week link.   Doesn't Sagebrush look a lot like Old MacDonald?

Not on the ground it doesn't.

[Tim Johnson]

There are some great courses in Canada but the rankings, as discussed numerous times here, may not be perfect. One of the main reasons we dont have more courses ranked is that we dont have as many courses as our neighbors to the south. We are a small population given our land size so we dont need that many courses. Some courses that should get discussion:

The National- I have never played it but general thought is it is the toughest. Trevino said oneof the toughest he ever played.

St Georges- Although maybe short by today's standards for the pro's, it is worthy of status.

Hamilton- I read somewhere back in 06 that it was ranked by PGA players as the best non major course of the year. The pros really raved about it and I am curious to see what kind of field enters this years Open. As Tiger really likes these types of courses, very curious to see if his fellow pros have spoken enough about it to get him to enter, not holding out hope, bad time in the schedule.

Highland Links- Frank is right, maintenance is a problem. The course is part of our National Parks and therefore the government is responsible for funding.

Cabot Links- Hoping to go this year but from the sounds of it, looks like it should live upto the hype.

There are numerous other courses that are really good but not sure if they are top 50.

just glad nobody mentioned Glen Abbey, one of the most overrated courses and one of the reasons our Open fell off the map. Golf Canada has done a good job in recent years by selecting new courses for the open, hopefully they keep doing it. Angus Glen is nothing to rave and the pros hated it. Even DLIII didnt play the year after he made money doing some work on it.

For guys who havent seen Hamilton, try and watch it this years open, curious to hear some reviews on it.

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