[Patrick_Mucci]

Pine Valley
Garden City
Seminole
Augusta National
Sand Hills
Wild Horse
Hidden Creek
Mountain Ridge
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Dunes
NGLA
Westhampton
Southampton
Atlantic
Essex County (NJ)
Sebonack

Will other courses move to create or restore that seemingly critical element shared by the above courses ?

[Adam Clayman]

No.

If they haven't learnt what fun golf is all about, by now, they are likely either holding onto some misguided belief that difficulty is where it's all at. BECAUSE, They will continue to plant trees, in the exact spot a creative player might make use of a slope, on a dry day. Pull in their OB stakes to tighten things up, AND water the hell out of everything.

 Or,

They are just following what they see others do, have no appreciation for the finer points, and/or are being advised/influenced by someone not educated on the subject.

Pat,
I highly doubt, in your myopic world, you have seen how heinous the influence of these masochists has been on the majority of courses that exist outside of your tri-state area. I saw two yesterday in NW Nebraska that looked like they were trying to be Augusta Nat'l, using pine trees to dictate the corridors and an almost Religious devotion to the RTJ stereotype, bunker right, bunker left.

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't expect to see Sebonack on a list of "User friendly courses that present an enjoyable challenge" ... even at the bottom.

Then again, it's the first time I've heard Pine Valley described as "user friendly", too.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom
I think that list is user friendly courses for Pat, because there are a few others that wouldn't be on my list too

[jeffwarne]

Tom
I think that list is user friendly courses for Pat, because there are a few others that wouldn't be on my list too

I think he meant "access friendly"

[Jaeger Kovich]

Pat - What on earth does "user friendly" mean?!

[Matt_Cohn]

Is "wide fairways" the answer?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I didn't expect to see Sebonack on a list of "User friendly courses that present an enjoyable challenge" ... even at the bottom.

Then again, it's the first time I've heard Pine Valley described as "user friendly", too.

This is one of a few comments I have read from you make about Sebonack. I have only played it once, that being the year it opened, but I found the course extremely enjoyable.  I am a 6 and broke 80.  If I had an extra $500,000 or whatever the deposit is, I would join in a heartbeat.  
What are the features you feel are less than enjoyable?

[Ronald Montesano]

Sorry to jump on the Bash-Pat's-List bandwagon, but I do orbit a different sun than he. I cannot imagine filing a list like that, for any reason other than provocation.

All courses are user-friendly when their membership is small and does not frequent the course. Muni-up any of his list and they have a different set of characteristics in common.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is "wide fairways" the answer?

Matt,

You beat the experts.

Yes, they all enjoy wide fairways, making them "user friendly".

All too often, courses are viewed, solely in the context of the back tees, rather than in the context of play from all tees, forward and back.

I've played with an 18 handicap who had his best round at Pine Valley, by many shots.

Pine Valley, and other courses, aren't meant for begining golfers, so that element of the spectrum can be dismissed for purposes of this thread.

Wide fairways equate to a "user friendly" course since the demands on the broad spectrum of golfers are minimalized.

It's the narrowing of fairways that make golf more difficult for the broad spectrum of golfers.

Yet, for the last few decades, courses have been narrowing their fairways, perhaps applying a logic that appears to work for PGA Tour Pros, to average memberships.

When will the trend to "narrow" be reversed ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks for your vote of support Pat. 

First I'll say that variety is more important than pure width

2nd There is a big difference between the fairways you've mentioned.
Mountain Ridge 35 yards
Pine Valley 30-50 yds
Sebonack 40 yards
Bandon Dunes 50 yards
Rustic Canyon 60 yards
Pacific Dunes 60 yards
Wolf Point 40-80-240!?! yards

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't expect to see Sebonack on a list of "User friendly courses that present an enjoyable challenge" ... even at the bottom.

Then again, it's the first time I've heard Pine Valley described as "user friendly", too.

This is one of a few comments I have read from you make about Sebonack. I have only played it once, that being the year it opened, but I found the course extremely enjoyable.  I am a 6 and broke 80.  If I had an extra $500,000 or whatever the deposit is, I would join in a heartbeat.  
What are the features you feel are less than enjoyable?

Tommy:

I've received a lot of feedback regarding the difficulty of Sebonack.  Many people think it's over the top.  Personally, I think it's okay, as long as you play it from far enough forward, and if they aren't running the greens at 12 or 13.  But, the greens really do get that fast sometimes, and I can say with some authority that the course will be very difficult with greens at those speeds.

When I hear the term "user friendly" I think of a golf course that is not too hard for an 18-handicap to get around.  There are some great courses which just don't fit that description -- Pine Valley would be the first to come to mind.  [Pat's 18-handicap friend's reported round at Pine Valley must be one of the great exceptions in the history of rules! ]  I was just saying I would put Sebonack more in that camp than with some of the more "fun" courses we've built.  If you thought that implied a knock on Sebonack, you are reading me wrong.

[Keith OHalloran]

Tom. What speeds do you think optimize the design of Sebonack?
At what speeds do you expect the Women's Open to be?

[Greg Tallman]

I didn't expect to see Sebonack on a list of "User friendly courses that present an enjoyable challenge" ... even at the bottom.

Then again, it's the first time I've heard Pine Valley described as "user friendly", too.

ditto???

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat. I always heard PV was not user friendly for high handicappers

[jeffwarne]

I've played with an 18 handicap who had his best round at Pine Valley, by many shot

Pat,
Was he by chance your partner in the Member-Guest?

I actually can believe an 18 could have their best round anywhere (he probably hit more fairways greens than he's ever hit before)
When you're playing out of your mind, does it really matter where you're playing?

I want to see how "user friendly" he thinks PV is on an off day-which in my opinion is the true test of how user friendly a course is.

For better players,particularly poor drivers, I would put NGLA in the "user friendly" category.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom. What speeds do you think optimize the design of Sebonack?
At what speeds do you expect the Women's Open to be?

Keith:

The speed we discussed during construction was 11 on the Stimpmeter.  They'd be fine at 9, too.  It's when they get to 12 that I get concerned.

I've heard Mike Davis say he'd like to see the greens very fast for the U.S. Women's Open.  I'll trust him to know what he's doing.  When I spent the day with him reviewing hole locations for the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, I thought they were pretty severe ... but the players handled them just fine.  Perhaps I underestimate the talent out there sometimes, but I figure it's better to under-estimate than to over-estimate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

  Pat. I always heard PV was not user friendly for high handicappers

Anthony,

I guess it depends upon what one considers a high handicap.

I wasn't referencing 36 handicaps, which I would consider very high handicaps.

For some reason, golfers and/or critics seem to think that high handicap golfers should hit fairways and greens in regulation and make pars.

When viewed in that context, reality gets skewed.

[jeffwarne]

Tom. What speeds do you think optimize the design of Sebonack?
At what speeds do you expect the Women's Open to be?

Keith:

The speed we discussed during construction was 11 on the Stimpmeter.  They'd be fine at 9, too.  It's when they get to 12 that I get concerned.

I've heard Mike Davis say he'd like to see the greens very fast for the U.S. Women's Open.  I'll trust him to know what he's doing.  When I spent the day with him reviewing hole locations for the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, I thought they were pretty severe ... but the players handled them just fine.  Perhaps I underestimate the talent out there sometimes, but I figure it's better to under-estimate than to over-estimate.

Tom,
Why do you think Mike Davis wants to see the greens "very fast" for the Women's Open.
Because they want the women to play in  7 hours instead of 6 ?
If the architect designed them to play at 11, why would he want something faster?
Wouldn't you lose a lot of good pins?
Those greens at 11 with firmness and a bit of wind would be all those players could handle.

Not too long ago "very fast" meant 11,12, but recently I've heard highly placed people in golf referring to numbers as high as 14 or 15 as targets.
I seriously doubt they reach/reached those targets, but shouldn't there be some concern about the absurdity of such statements?
Johnny Miller kept saying the greens were "14" at Bay Hill on Saturday. There were very firm,and difficult as well with the wind, but no chance they were 14.
If authorities keep throwing around such numbers, eventually members want them, and they might even get them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've played with an 18 handicap who had his best round at Pine Valley, by many shot

Pat,
Was he by chance your partner in the Member-Guest?

Jeff, no, he was one of several friends I was allowed to bring as guests.
He hit the wide fairways in regulation, was short of the greens in most cases and made bogeys and pars.
He never expected to make pars, and didn't play to make pars, but, he made a few putts and scored well.
He did not play from the championship tees.

I actually can believe an 18 could have their best round anywhere (he probably hit more fairways greens than he's ever hit before)
When you're playing out of your mind, does it really matter where you're playing?

I think the wide fairways and his early success made him feel comfortable.
He had always been told how difficult PV was, but, as the round progressed he gained alot of confidence.

I had another friend, not a long hitter, but very straight, also shoot the round of his life.
The trouble at PV is not on the fairways.
And, most play PV when the greens aren't lightening fast, which makes the greens very manageable.

I want to see how "user friendly" he thinks PV is on an off day-which in my opinion is the true test of how user friendly a course is.

On an "off" day, isn't EVERY course difficult for us ?

For better players, particularly poor drivers, I would put NGLA in the "user friendly" category.


I don't understand the "better players, particularly poor drivers" definition.
Isn't a better player usually a good driver ?

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat. User friendly for me would be Cruden Bay, Prestwick and North Berwick.

 Anthony

[jeffwarne]

I've played with an 18 handicap who had his best round at Pine Valley, by many shot

Pat,
Was he by chance your partner in the Member-Guest?

Jeff, no, he was one of several friends I was allowed to bring as guests.
He hit the wide fairways in regulation, was short of the greens in most cases and made bogeys and pars.
He never expected to make pars, and didn't play to make pars, but, he made a few putts and scored well.
He did not play from the championship tees.

I actually can believe an 18 could have their best round anywhere (he probably hit more fairways greens than he's ever hit before)
When you're playing out of your mind, does it really matter where you're playing?

I think the wide fairways and his early success made him feel comfortable.
He had always been told how difficult PV was, but, as the round progressed he gained alot of confidence.

I had another friend, not a long hitter, but very straight, also shoot the round of his life.
The trouble at PV is not on the fairways.
And, most play PV when the greens aren't lightening fast, which makes the greens very manageable.

I want to see how "user friendly" he thinks PV is on an off day-which in my opinion is the true test of how user friendly a course is.

On an "off" day, isn't EVERY course difficult for us ?

For better players, particularly poor drivers, I would put NGLA in the "user friendly" category.


I don't understand the "better players, particularly poor drivers" definition.
Isn't a better player usually a good driver ?

No, I'm not
I find it very user friendly (crooked balls can be found,recovered, and often hit onto the green-which induces freedom and leads to much better driving)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff, et. al.,

Think of the tee shot on the 1st holes at Prestwick and TOC and tell me which one makes you very comfortable and which one strikes fear in your mind ?

To me, "user friendly" implies an element of relaxation/confidence on the tee.
Wide fairways create that lack of pressure on the golfer, versus narrow fairways which create tension and the fear of failure.

[Anthony Gray]

  That's an iron for most golfers now.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, et. al.,

Think of the tee shot on the 1st holes at Prestwick and TOC and tell me which one makes you very comfortable and which one strikes fear in your mind ?

To me, "user friendly" implies an element of relaxation/confidence on the tee.
Wide fairways create that lack of pressure on the golfer, versus narrow fairways which create tension and the fear of failure.

agreed to some extent.
certainly agreed about TOC vs. Prestwick. (although it would've been hard to have been any more relaxed than I was on the first tee at Prestwick after my introduction to "kummel"  )

To me it's often the consequences for the big miss (OB, water, inpenetrable brush) regardless of how wide the fairway is.
i.e. as far as confidence, I'd prefer a narrow fairway surrounded by 3-4 inch rough and a few trees to a wide fairway with OB left and deep brush right. One reason I rarely play well in Florida.
In discussing playability issues with supers I often hear "there'e plenty of room there" or "that area's out of play" They don't spend as much time on the course with members as I do

Another example, because I know I can usually find my ball and recover at NGLA, I usually drive it pretty well there, even though the fairways aren't nearly as wide as say PV. I've played NGLA multiple times.
The two times I played PV I hit many 3 woods and 1 irons (it's been awhile ) because I feared the penalty for missing, even though the fairways are very wide. But more plays there would probably produce more confidence.

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