[abiggadike]

I am curious as to why many people have expressed their dislike for the 16th at Dornoch.  

I have read, and heard, in numerous places that it is widely considered as the weakest hole on the course.  Is it because the green is flat?  ..that there are no bunkers up by the green?  ..that the second shot (most of the time) is blind?

I am curious to hear what others think because I consider it to be a great hole.  Your club selection off the tee presents a tough decision, especially if playing down wind.  Do you want a long/blind/severely uphill shot in, a long/somewhat blind/moderately uphill shot, or a short/visable/slightly uphill shot? Deciding, then pulling it off is a tough combination to get.  Then guaging the distance (on a very deep green no less) is crucial, and if you are down below it is tough to judge the wind up top.  As for the green... because of its 'High' location it is usually a fair bit quicker than the rest and gusting winds make putting even that much more difficult.  I have found this green to have subtle breaks that are often difficult to see; sometimes tougher than obvious, severe slopes.  I feel that 4 here is always a good score.

Having not read a lot about golf course architecture, I mainly rely on my experiences playing holes when 'judging' them.  How much they make me think..., how many different ways they can play..., what types of shots they require..., etc.  As I said above, I am interested in what weaknesses others find with this hole-- in my mind it is clearly the most underrated on the course.

Andrew

[Ran Morrissett]

Andrew,

My lasting impression of the hole is this: the architect(s) got stuck and needed to get from the 15th green to the 17th tee and the 16th hole was the result.

Or to put it better, I do not believe that the architect "found" the 16th hole and then worked the 15th and 17th holes in around it.

Perhaps the 16th is as good a hole as one could hope for over that land? I haven't played it in years to comment if that's the case.

Certainly Herbert Waren Wind offered the most famous and damning statement against it when he said that he had always had a nightmare about a hole that went uphill, and uphill, and uphill to a blind green and he was shocked to find just such a hole at Dornoch.

Andrew, if you think the 16th is great, is it safe to assume that Dornoch is your all-time favorite course? What is your least favorite hole there then?

Cheers,

[Rich_Goodale]

I think we've been around on this one before, but I'll repeat some of my thoughts.

Firstly, I agree with Andrew that the 16th is under-rated, and a very testing hole.  The tee shot is particularly challenging, as the fairway is effectively a "bottle" particularly when the course is playing firm and fast.  Under those conditions, a full driver hit just slightly left of center can career across the fairway into the quarry, just at about the time that you are smugly picking your tee out of the ground with a false sense of satisfaction.  Thus, you have to choose whether or not to go for it or wimp out and hit a long iron down to the lower left plateau and face a blind shot directly over the quarry to the skyline green.

Vis a vis the hole just being a filler between the 15th and the 17th, this does not jibe with the diagram in the Old Tom Morris scrapbook which shows that in the original routing there was not any 17th hole (where it is today) but rather a tee next to the 16th green playing to what is now the 18th.  It is, in fact, one of the 2 holes that survives from Old Tom's routing (the other being the 3rd).

All that being said, I do agree that it is one of the weakest holes on the course--but that jsut goes to show how great Royal Dornoch really is.

Rich_

[Mike Erdmann]

I suppose the 16th get's a bad rap because of the green complex, but I agree with Rich when he talks about the trickiness of the drive.  The fairway looks wide and forgiving, but the quarry/fall-off on the left side can suck in what you'd think was a well played tee shot.

[abiggadike]

Ran,

Regarding Royal Dornoch as my all-time favorite, it is tough to say.  I think getting to play it as many times as I have has allowed me to see it play in so many different conditions and from so many different places (and in tournament play as well).  I think that makes a big difference.  When lucky enough to play some other great courses, it has usually only been on a single occasion.  For example, I played Pine Valley last month and was amazed.  But I don't think I can _fully_ appreciate just how great it is from one time around.  There are so many things one can miss even while trying to take it all in.  Also, I absolutely love links golf.  So I find it hard to make a statement such as one course being my "all-time favorite" in that I don't think I can compare them on equal ground.

I guess you can take that as a "Yes, but..."

Regarding a least favorite hole... hmm.  I'm not sure, possibly 13.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am one of those that feel 16 in the weakest hole on this otherwise great course. The toughness of the drive is acknowleged, yet it is not a good driving hole. I mean into the side of a hill, geez. The 2nd shot is blind from a difficult stance. The green complex is the plainest on the course. Naturally a tough stance or blind shot does not make for a bad hole. In this case the combination makes for a hole with minimal virtue and alot of general negatives.

[Fred_C.]

I enjoy personally enjoy the climb towards the green as the pin increasingly comes into view.  Moreover, if you climb halfway up the fairway and turn around, you are rewarded with a gorgeous view of the sea and links.  Nonetheless, it's certainly among the more pedestrian holes there.

[Rich_Goodale]

Ole' Buddy JDB

There is a fairway on the 16th, and it is flat!  All you have to do is hit the ball long and very straight and not worry too much in your backswing about what might happen if you do not.  For a man of your skill and courage, it should be a doddle.

[Paul Richards]

Sorry, but there are no weak holes on Royal Dornoch, where
the ghost of Donald Ross still roams (we think we saw him
through the fog and mist!).

Dornoch is one of the most special places on earth, and
the High Hole, while not the most beautiful hole on the
course, is still inspirational and leads you up to enjoy the
view from the awesome seventeenth tee!

[abiggadike]

I wouldn't say that the first flat portion is that far (before it levels off for good), about a 3 wood or even a long iron for longer players.  With the ground being so firm the hard part is hitting it straight enough so that it stays there and doesn't roll down to the left hand side where you have a completely blind shot.  If you do try for the right hand side those two bunkers screaming "automatic 5" make you snipe it anyways.

I think it's a good driving hole because it gives you 3 options.

One of the first times I played there I commented on how firm the ground was and how windy it was.  The guys I played with told me how much softer and calmer it was than usual... I love it.

[Rich_Goodale]

Andrew

You are right about the length needed off the tee of the 16th--usually a 1-2 iron will do, except against the wind.  In that case the quarry is out of reach, but the necessity of getting the ball up to the upper shelf of the fairway becomes critical, so, the big dog is needed and those f**ing bunkers on the right come very much into play!

Cheers

[Will E]

Dornoch is one of the best courses on the planet.
Sixteen is not its best hole, but to consider it weak is like finding fault with Julia Roberts looks.
I like the tee shot on 16 very much, and will agree that it is not a great second shot to a rather plain green complex.
Get over it !
If you have problems with this hole spoiling your round I'd like to know where you think you can find 18 better holes.
Just thinking about the view from the third tee gives me chills.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Rich, I beg your forgiveness for the greatest of sins. It always seems like I was hitting into the face of a hill with a trap on the right and the quarry on the left. Maybe my stomach jaded my memory of the plateau or shelf into one big hill. And, for you gentlemen who talk of the view after the climb. I must remend you we men of weight are keenly aware of view points that do not require a climb. I really like the areas at the top of the hill after a strole from the clubhouse, pint in hand, to the well placed benches.

[THuckaby2]

JDB - amen brother re the stoll and the view... and it can't be said enough today and tomorrow:

GO LSU!!!!

TH
fellow man of weight, ever increasing

ps - I too find 16 Dornoch to be the weakest hole on a great course... and also to be better than 99% of all golf holes I regularly play.

[abiggadike]

I think that last statements sums it up perfectly:

"ps - I too find 16 Dornoch to be the weakest hole on a great course... and also to be better than 99% of all golf holes I regularly play."

In my original post I was comparing it to all golf holes, not the other 17 at Royal Dornoch.  I guess it is fair to say that it is one of the "weaker" holes at RDGC, but certainly not a "weak" hole in general.

On another note, does anyone agree with me that the 4th at RDGC is the toughest driving hole they have ever played?  I would love to hear about other holes that are just as, if not more, difficult from courses I have not played.

[Rich_Goodale]

Andrew

You are right about the 4th.  When the course is playing firm and fast the only way to hold that fairway is with a controlled draw that lands just to the right of the ridge on the left.  When it is playing only a little bit fast (kind of like Shinnethingy was for me in Oct.), you can just about get away with a power fade on the same line.

I thikn I'm on recored as calling the 4th as the best hole at Dornoch.  When you add the driving challenge to the fact that you CAN recover from a slightly mishit drive, with a heroic shot and to the fact that the green complex puts anything at NGLA (or anywhere else I have been) to shame, well, that's a pretty good golf hole, IMHO................

[THuckaby2]

OK, I'll bite.

the fact that the green complex puts anything at NGLA (or anywhere else I have been) to shame, well, that's a pretty good golf hole, IMHO................

Easy there, oh Brainy One.  That green complex puts all at NGLA to shame?  I'm gonna have to disagree and offer up each of 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12, 14, 16 and 17 at NGLA as its equal or superior.

And in the end THE REDAN is a better #4 hole...

#4 at Dornoch is indeed a great, great hole, but let's not get carried away here.

And isn't FOXY a better hole in any case?

You knew I wouldn't just let this go!

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

Guess I'll have to get back to NGLA to see for sure , but I'll still take the 4th at RDGC against your lot.  Foxy's a great hole, but not quite as good as the 4th.  Hey, Foxy!--there's another green complex that old CB would have been proud to have been able to equal.......

[THuckaby2]

Ha!  OK Rich, I'll back down.  Your love for your home course is admirable... and it's a damn fine home to have.

But hey, I like this tack.  You know, I think NGLA actually does suck - I need to see it 25 more times to really understand it.  Same goes for Pine Valley, Augusta, Sand Hills....

 

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tom, I am so happy in the words of Jessie Jackson," You are somebody now". And to display a great American like Homer J. who jessie would dream of being half as great. well i am impressed at your comeback form guestdom. As for the 4th at Dornoch. It is one of my favorite holes anywhere. Yesterday while walking my site and working on the routing with Art, that hole, ie the drive on 4, came up as a desired stategic element for a hole at my course. Maybe relax it a bit so you can keep it on the course with a slightly less perfectly hit shot. But use the bunkers and faiway contours the same way.

[THuckaby2]

I am indeed somebody, JB - but I had to somewhat "jury-rig" the system to do it.

Did I spell that correctly?  My Dad uses that term all the time and I've never actually written it... but I digress...

Don't get me wrong, #4 at Dornoch has got to be a GREAT hole in anybody's book, including mine if I had such a thing.  I just took a small issue to some of Rich's hyperbole, that's all....

Speaking of which, to say I can't wait to see your course is the understatement of the year!

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Thanks Tom, it seems neither of us in playing golf today. Have a great weekend and I appreciate your support for my beloved Tigers. Time to tape up and get ready to play.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tigers Tigers Tigers!!!! Sugar bowl bound

[Paul Richards]

Another really neat thing about Dornoch is that it is so far
North, that during the summer months, it stays light very
late into the evening.  I remember teeing off at 9:45 pm,
getting in 12 holes, and going to the pub upstairs to watch
the Western Open from my hometown on the telly!

Awesome!

[AndrewB]

This has come up again on the "What got you interested in GCA?" thread.

This thread can withstand a jacking.  

Probably true, but I think I'll move it over to this old thread anyhow.

So if 16 isn't the worst hole on the course, what is?

Again keeping in mind that I do think it's a great golf hole, and that I too never did figure out a good way to play it nor have ever felt comfortable on that tee shot.

It appears that I'm on record above as saying possibly 13, but I'm not sure I still believe that.  My thinking at the time, if I recall, was that you always wanted to try and land the ball in the same place (front right corner of the green) no matter where the hole was placed, so the hole became somewhat one dimensional.  That doesn't take into account how difficult it is to land the ball there, or the trajectory you try to have on the shot given where the hole is, or how difficult the recovery shots are when you miss the green (long to the left of the back bunker is the only semi-straightforward up and down).

Right now the first seems like the hole that requires the least thought and has the fewest number of options (once you rule out trying to drive the green).  But even that's a good hole, I'd say.  The tee shot tempts you to aim down the left for a clear view of the green on your second, but that forces you to bring the bunkers left of the fairway into play (which make it "impossible" to reach the green in two).  There's a lot of room to the right (more than you can see), but that leaves you a semi or completely blind approach that must carry the bunker short of the green (forcing you to go up in the air with a short wedge, which is bad in the wind).  The slopes away from the sides and back of the green make for tricky and fun recovery shots (more fun than the recovery shots on 13, actually, given the short grass and many options).

Anyhow, now I'm just wishing I was in Dornoch.  I guess it's fair to say there isn't a weak hole on the course.

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