Is the 12th at ANGC a template of the 8th at Augusta CC ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ross remodeled Augusta CC in 1927.

The 12th hole green complex at ANGC bears a strong likeness to the 8th hole green complex at Augusta CC.

Is it possible that MacKenzie recognized the "greatness" of the green complex and incorporated it into # 12 ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

That might upset the folks at Stoke Park who feel that the Dr. (when he was working as Colt's assistant in 1908) got his inspiration for ANGC's 12th from their 7th hole.

 

[Sven Nilsen]

I think the better question would be whether both holes were modeled after the 7th at Stoke Park.

[Ronald Montesano]

Would Ross have known of Stoke Park?

[Sven Nilsen]

There are some old threads that suggest Stoke 7 was the impetus for the original 16th, not the 12th.  However, the bunkers behind the 7th at Stoke are very similar to old pictures of the old bunkers behind the 12th, which were set in the hillside a bit above the level of the green.

[Bryan Drennon]

That might upset the folks at Stoke Park who feel that the Dr. (when he was working as Colt's assistant in 1908) got his inspiration for ANGC's 12th from their 7th hole.

 

Wow. Nobody else looks at this pic and sees a near exact copy of the 13th?


.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

That's a great question.

Bryan,

That's a fair observation as well.


Let's remember that # 12 at ANGC is probably less than a few hundred yards removed from # 8 at Augusta CC.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Even though SP connects their 7th w/ the 12th, an article Mackenzie wrote entitled "Plans For The Ideal Golf Course" says this about 16th: "This hole, over a stream, is somewhat similar to the best hole (seventh) at Stoke Poges, England. It will probably be a better hole than the one at Stoke Poges as the green will be more visible and the background more attractive".

[Kalen Braley]

You could paste that picture all over the place without giving details and I'd be most casual fans would confuse it for a version of the 12th at ANGC.

I can't find a picture of it, but I've seen pictures of the original 12th hole and it looks very different to what it is now.

Perhaps Dr. MacK wasn't the "thief" of the 12th hole, but whoever it was that re-designed it to its current form.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

The original 16th had the same configuration in terms of tee, stream, green, and it was short.

What were the playing distances at SP ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I do remember reading that Bobby Jones was supposed to have gotten the inspiration for 12 from the 16th at Columbia CC (1911,Travis).
 
Edit: Modern yardages: SP 7th=172/150    CCC 16th=108/100  

CCC 16 - Looks a lot like ANGC 12, from a different angle       

[Patrick_Mucci]

You could paste that picture all over the place without giving details and I'd be most casual fans would confuse it for a version of the 12th at ANGC.

I can't find a picture of it, but I've seen pictures of the original 12th hole and it looks very different to what it is now.

Kalen,

You're confused........... again.

I'm looking at pictures of the 12th hole from 1935 and 1948 and the tee, bunker and green look the same.
What looks different are their surroundings.
You may be getting to the age when It's time to call an eye doctor

Perhaps Dr. MacK wasn't the "thief" of the 12th hole, but whoever it was that re-designed it to its current form.

Would you elaborate on the differences in the original hole that AM designed and the current hole ?

[Kalen Braley]

You could paste that picture all over the place without giving details and I'd be most casual fans would confuse it for a version of the 12th at ANGC.

I can't find a picture of it, but I've seen pictures of the original 12th hole and it looks very different to what it is now.

Kalen,

You're confused........... again.

I'm looking at pictures of the 12th hole from 1935 and 1948 and the tee, bunker and green look the same.
What looks different are their surroundings.
You may be getting to the age when It's time to call an eye doctor

Perhaps Dr. MacK wasn't the "thief" of the 12th hole, but whoever it was that re-designed it to its current form.

Would you elaborate on the differences in the original hole that AM designed and the current hole ?

Pat,

I wish I could find those old pictures of #12 when the course was new.  I recall seeing them on a thread a couple of years ago, but can't find it.  When and if I do, or if someone else posts them, I will gladly engage in a debate of what it was then as compared to now.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
 An older post about the subject from Marc Haring:

From the Art and Architecture section, here is Mike Miller's Picture of that old 16th at ANGC. Along with the quote there's no doubt, #7 at Stoke is definitely the blueprint for the old 16th and not the 12th. Everything is there; the slope left to right, the stream on the right, the green angle the setting into the hillside, the left side bunkers.


The original photo can be found in Geoff Shakelford’s Golden Age book, page 166. Has anyone got the picture that they can post.

The hole now looks like this but when I worked there it was very much like that old ANGC #16. They’ve changed the bunkering and added lots of beautification stuff with the pond and the rhododendrons etc.
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yep, Stoke 7 -> Augusta 12 apparently is a vampire of urban legends and we've no pine stakes to kill it off; thus it rises continually to torment us:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32995.0.html

[jeffwarne]

Ross remodeled Augusta CC in 1927.

The 12th hole green complex at ANGC bears a strong likeness to the 8th hole green complex at Augusta CC.

Is it possible that MacKenzie recognized the "greatness" of the green complex and incorporated it into # 12 ?

Patrick,
The eighth green of Augusta CC was placed in its' present location (behind the creek) during a redesign by Nicklaus' group in the early/mid 80's.
This lengthened the hole about 80-100 yards.
The new green and surrounds  bore little resemblance to any of the other greens and have been modified since.(certainly during the Silva renovation)
Prior to that the green was in front of the creek and underbrush/woods blocked any view of it.

So perhaps Nicklaus and his group recognized the greatness of the 12 at ANGC and copied that?
The two greens complexes actually have very little resemblance to each other unless simply looking at  an aeriel as # 8 at ACC is quite elevated on all sides and has decent contour, as well as having much more depth than 12 at ANGC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
 An older post about the subject from Marc Haring:

From the Art and Architecture section, here is Mike Miller's Picture of that old 16th at ANGC. Along with the quote there's no doubt, #7 at Stoke is definitely the blueprint for the old 16th and not the 12th. Everything is there; the slope left to right, the stream on the right, the green angle the setting into the hillside, the left side bunkers.


The original photo can be found in Geoff Shakelford’s Golden Age book, page 166. Has anyone got the picture that they can post.

Jim,

The photo on page 166 is very, very similar to the painting above.

The hole now looks like this but when I worked there it was very much like that old ANGC #16. They’ve changed the bunkering and added lots of beautification stuff with the pond and the rhododendrons etc.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

The eighth green of Augusta CC was placed in its' present location (behind the creek) during a redesign by Nicklaus' group in the early/mid 80's.

Jeff, that answers the question.

This lengthened the hole about 80-100 yards.
The new green and surrounds  bore little resemblance to any of the other greens and have been modified since.(certainly during the Silva renovation)

Prior to that the green was in front of the creek and underbrush/woods blocked any view of it.

So perhaps Nicklaus and his group recognized the greatness of the 12 at ANGC and copied that?

I'd  have to agree with that.

The two greens complexes actually have very little resemblance to each other unless simply looking at  an aeriel as # 8 at ACC is quite elevated on all sides and has decent contour, as well as having much more depth than 12 at ANGC.

The fronting creek, the angle and shape of the green are similar.
But, you've solved the mystery.

I tried looking at Augusta CC's history but the website wouldn't let me access it.

Thanks for clearing this up, on to the next thread.

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
I located an old GCA thread which shows #8 green at the bottom of various aeriels of ANGC in certain eras.
I found it while checking to see if perhaps #8 at ACC had indeed played across the creek at #8 originally(before my time ) as it does now (circa mid 80's renovation).
I've never liked the new green or the hole since they've it relocated, although it makes sense as a 3 shot hole-just never designed this way and the landing areas are awkward for the second shot unless a pure layup)
The hole was 489 downhill par 5 before.
You can see the creek in some of the aeriels but it's mainly obscured by the trees behind the green.
 Interesting stuff, and also a great old thread on GCA and ANGC.

I've bumped the old thread.(aeriels ANGC 1941,1960,1977 etc.)

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've bumped the old thread.(aeriels ANGC 1941,1960,1977 etc.)

Jeff,
No you haven't.  

Edit: Yes you have, I found it. 

[jeffwarne]

I've bumped the old thread.(aeriels ANGC 1941,1960,1977 etc.)

Jeff,
No you haven't.  

19 seconds baby
gotcha

[Jim_Kennedy]

You dog! I can't hunt and peck that fast.