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Matthew Essig

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Tumble Creek
« on: March 22, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »
It might be the most underrated Doak course on this site. Has some amazing holes and (IMO) a couple not so great, for example, the 4th: a long downwind par 5 with a 75-100 foot high hill you must navigate for your first, and if you can't make it up, second shots. For women, it is almost impossible to hit up. The two nines feel as if they are 3 different courses: 1-3, 5-9 feels like a parkland style course (some elevation and tree-lined), 4, 10-14, 18 feel as if you are actually playing in the cascades/on a mountain (extreme elevation changes and tree-lined), and 15-17 feel like Florida because it is on a giant meadow (flat, quite a few water hazards, open and wind howls). I personally love the course, especially the interesting greens  ;D

The few times I have played it were before I was on this site, so I never thought to have taken detailed pictures  :'(

How were your impressions when you have played it?

Tom, how much did you enjoy designing on such a unique site, etc?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 12:31:48 AM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Mike Hendren

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 09:44:26 AM »
Matthew, respectfully I disagree about the 4th.  I find it to be a highly strategic par five and one of the best holes on the course.   If one can boldly challenge the left hand bunker off the tee the hill can be skirted and the green is actually visible and reachable.  Only the timid or errant must take on the full brunt of the hill and the second shot remains meaningful as the line must be carefully chosen.  Other holes of note off the top of my head:

#2  A vertical ridge in the putting surface single-handedly turns an otherwise pedestrian par three into an excellent hole.

#7  A long par three that beckons a low runner.

#10  For those of us that are distance challenged, Doak gives the opportunity to carry the left hand bunker some 20 yards short of the green and have the ball kick forward and right off its backside onto the green.

#11  Everybody's favorite for good reason.  A beautifully sited green on a narrow ridgeline.  A visually intimidating and stunning uphill hole.

#17  A ridiculous green - simply not two puttable from certain spots.  Minimalism be damned.

Overall what sticks out for me is the strength of the three one-shot holes that occupay dead flat terrain where Doak brilliantly used restraint and/or excess to create memorable and challenging holes.    When paired with the 10th the collection of par threes is top notch.

I must add that the course played extremely firm and fast during my visit several years ago.  I watched with amusement as my putt from 50 yards out on the 8th zigged  and zagged with the corss-hatched  mowing lines on its way to the green!  I suspect most would rate the course in the 6.0 to 6.50 range using any set of criteria.  Rock solid if not great.

BTW I'm a sucker for golf in the Pacific Northwest  The scenery is so vivid and Tumble Creek's features wisely do not try to compete with it.

Bogey
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 09:50:23 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 10:18:56 AM »
Mike, thanks for the informed comments on the one-shotters.  I toured the course (and played about half of the holes), and one of the things I noted was how dull the par-3s looked.  I suspected that the green contouring, though subtle looking from the tee, was probably more substantial once around the green. 

Agree with you on 4, obviously one of the best holes on the golf course.

Also think 9 looked like a very strong hole.  Given the length of the hole and [I think] the prevailing wind into, it takes some serious cahones not to flatten that 9th fairway so that shorter hitters can get some view of the green.

I also really liked the first hole.  Short, but can bite you in the ass.  Probably fits well with the 'conservative-aggressive' thread.

I think the simple appearance of the par-3s, and the kind of generic feel of a few holes on the back nine keep this course from being discussed a bit more.  NB I don't exactly know what I mean by generic, but holes 12, 15 and 16 just didn't do much for me, but again, I only saw the course one evening so I am open to being corrected.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 10:31:19 AM »
I would agree with Hendrens overall assessment of the course right at 6 to 6.5 on the DS.

Although, the holes I preferred were a bit different.

#1-5 was a terrific set of opening holes in my opinion, with 3 and 4 being the stand-outs of those. #4 is certainly a terrific hole, even if it is tough on the high capper.  I struggled with it, but it was a pure joy as it scored high in both aethestics and strategy for me

#6-8 is the first quiet part of the course.  I thought 7 and 8 were just OK but things really do get going again with number 9...just a tough bugger of a hole.

#11 on the back side is nothing short of a world class hole IMO and should be discussed more on this site when talking about the best of par 3s.  The way it was placed on the spine of that ridge was just sheer genius...Its truly a unique hole IMO as I'd never seen anything like that before.

#12 and 13 were more interesting than what people give credit for.  The big speed slot on 12 and 13 is a very undulating green where you gotta hit it to the right level.

#14 thru 17 was the 2nd "quiet" section of the course with meadow holes running in and around a mountain pond/lake.  I can't say any of these holes really stuck out with me either.  I can't remember for the life of me 17 being an extreme green.  It was crowned as I recall.

18 was another kick ass finisher and the green complex is just terrific.

Sean Leary

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 10:46:03 AM »
I agree with Kalen's take.

An underrated set of Doak greens as well. A couple of really wild ones, but many much more subtle. To me its a Doak 7 through 13, and a solid Doak 6 overall. Conditions are usually unbelievably perfect. Top 2 private in WA, no question, to me.

Tim Pitner

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 11:13:53 AM »
I haven't played Tumble Creek--I'd like to, among other reasons, in order to see a Doak mountain course. 

For whatever reason, I'm really drawn to some of Doak/Renaissance's more understated courses, like this one, Renaissance Club and I'll say St. Andrews Beach, although I'm not sure it falls in this category.  More so than even fellow travelers like Bill Coore, it seems to me that Doak adapts his courses to the given land and doesn't force a certain style.  I guess this is most easily seen in the bunkering.  Sure, Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal and Barnbougle seem to share some characteristics, but they're very different from the likes of Tumble Creek or Renissance. 

For those who have played Tumble Creek and other Doak courses, how do they compare (I'm not asking for a ranking)?  What tells you it's a Doak course? 

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 11:22:20 AM »
I agree with Sean, Kalen, and Mike's opinions on Tumble Creek, so I have nothing new to add.

However, golf holes do not come much prettier than this one...


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 12:22:44 PM »
Tim,

I've played 5 Doak courses and I would put them like this:

1a)  Pac Dunes
1b)  Ballyneal
1c)  RCCC
4) Tumble Creek
5)  Beechtree

In Washington State, I'd rank Tumble Creek #3, behind Chambers (1) and Wine Valley (2), but I haven't played Olympic Mountain Gold, or Aldarra, so I'm not sure how those would fit in.

Richard,

That's a fantastic shot of #11.  Unfortunately on the day I was there it was overcast and rainy so I missed that...I'd love to get back there sometime on a glorious day like that.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 12:37:29 PM »
My rank of the State:

1. Chambers Bay
2. Wine Valley
3. Aldarra
4. Tumble Creek
5. Gold Mountain - Olympic
6. Sahalee
7. Loomis
8. Desert Canyon
9. Suncadia
10. Trophy Lake

I still haven't played TPC, Palouse Ridge, Salish Cliffs, and the new course at Suncadia (but I should play those by this summer). There is a significant drop between #2 and #3 and #6 and #7.

I like Aldarra slightly better than Tumble Creek because I think the weaker holes at Tumble are much weaker than the ones at Aldarra. But that may be just because I have many more rounds at Aldarra.

Sean Leary

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 12:43:15 PM »

I like Aldarra slightly better than Tumble Creek because I think the weaker holes at Tumble are much weaker than the ones at Aldarra. But that may be just because I have many more rounds at Aldarra.

I agreed with Garland this week on something and now you. Yet another sign of the apocalypse....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 12:43:15 PM »
Richard,

I'm not sure when you are planning on playing Rope Rider, but we should possibly get another little mini-event going on this year.  I have a few buddies who may be up to coming over to play Rope Rider and the Arnold Palmer course in the end of July.  And we'll possibly stay overnight and work in Desert Canyon as well on the way back to Spokane.

Nice list there.  My top 10 in WA state looks like this at the moment, but yours no doubt looks better.  :)

1   Chambers Bay
2   Wine Valley
3   Tumble Creek
4   Palouse Ridge
5   Indian Canyon
6   McCormick Woods
7   Liberty Lake
8   Creek at Qualchan
9   Links at Moses Point
10   Hangman Valley

P.S.  When you come over to play Palouse, let me know as I'm only 75 minutes away...my buddy and I would gladly join in.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 12:50:08 PM by Kalen Braley »

Brad Isaacs

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 12:50:30 PM »
I can't wait to play Tumble Creek courtesy of a member, but in the tradition of hijacking threads, why the lack of mention of Canterwood, especially since the changes made by Hardbottle which were good and probably needed?

Michael Hayes

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 01:13:45 PM »
Tim,

Tumble Creek has an unmistakable Doak feel to it, especially the greens and green entrances.  The scale of the course is subdued when comparing it to Rock Creek, another Doak mountain course.  I was fortunate to really get an extended look at RCCC last year and was struck by the huge scale of the property.  The total elevation change at RCCC is about 350 ft. but the roll of the ground within individual holes is just mind boggling!  Tumble Creek is a golf course that you would have a sense of familiarity with, but Rock Creek is very unique.

Brad,

As someone who spent a decade on the Kitsap Peninsula, Canterwood is the other Doak 0 with Port Ludlow.

Michael
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 01:21:58 PM »
I can't wait to play Tumble Creek courtesy of a member, but in the tradition of hijacking threads, why the lack of mention of Canterwood, especially since the changes made by Hardbottle which were good and probably needed?

That's funny.  I can't wait to play Canterwood!  ;D  How is that for symmetry?  

In order to re-jack back the thread, I think Tumble is definitely an underrated Doak.  Tom has said the same in the past.  The greens are subtle and baffling at times to first time players.  It really takes quite a few rounds under your belt before you have the "ah hah" moment.  Number 4 is one of Doak's best par fives.  No one talks about number 5 much, but a very cool par 4.  I may be in the minority, but I don't have a problem with holes 14 to 17.  I like the change of pace coming off the hill and playing thru the meadow.  Two reachable par 5s in a row with a wind behind you gets you all confident. Then the greens at 16 and 17 bring you back to earth right before the 18th green blows you away.  Awesome golf course.

Joe Stansell

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 01:35:52 PM »
There seems to be a consensus that Chambers Bay leads the state. As I'm now calling Chambers Bay home, I cannot disagree. But I can say that Wine Valley is neck-and-neck, and for the price, is a significantly better value.

I'm looking forward to playing Tumble Creek and compare it with my now fading memory of Aldarra.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 01:41:52 PM »
There seems to be a consensus that Chambers Bay leads the state. As I'm now calling Chambers Bay home, I cannot disagree. But I can say that Wine Valley is neck-and-neck, and for the price, is a significantly better value.

I'm looking forward to playing Tumble Creek and compare it with my now fading memory of Aldarra.

Joe,

I agree that it is close, but I think Chambers Bay location and its wow holes are enough to move it into the Doak 8 range, whereas Wine Valley is a 7.5.


Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 01:42:18 PM »
I spent six months working at Tumble Creek in the summer of 2010.   The course grew on me each round I played.  I have probably put in around 40 rounds there.  The thing that hardly no one mentions is that it is on an extremely windy site.  I would like to hear Doaks opinion, but I bet this would rank up there in windy sites that he has had to work on, and he has had quite a few windy sites (Ballyneal, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, Tumble Creek).  The average round at Tumble Creek is going to be about 60 degrees with about a steady 20mph breeze, that gets stronger on the open holes.  Any day could range to a 2 to 4 club wind.  

The course has a fantastic set of greens.  Even the ones that are more subtle such as (1, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16) still have tons of back to front slope.  The greens that have a ton of contour are (2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18).  They are bent grass greens that roll perfectly all season.  The fairways are also bent grass that is mowed very tight.    I would put these just fairways just behind Pronghorn in terms of perfect bentgrass fairways.    Though bentgrass is not a perfect surface for fast and firm conditions, with all the wind, it dries out the surface and makes it very firm.  

Standout golf holes are #1, a very tight drive but nothing more required than a hybrid off the tee.  #3 a slight dogleg right that tempts the driver to give it a go downwind, but bunkers lurk the entire way down the right side.  #4 a fantastic par 5, and ranks as one of Doaks Best par 5's.  #5 a is stern par 4 that wraps around the canyon.  #9 is awesome how he just saddled the fairway over a huge ridge.   #10 is another great par 4 that goes along the canyon.  #11 is one of the prettiest par 3s around.  #18 ranks up there IMO as one of the best Doak finishing holes.  

I will be back up in the Northwest this summer interning at Aldarra, and I am looking forward to playing at Tumble again.  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 01:47:01 PM by Peter Ferlicca »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 01:49:24 PM »
Kalen,

Get out of the cart and walk Palouse Ridge. Then rerate it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 01:53:19 PM »
Peter,

I really saw the course in aytpical conditions then:

1)  There wasn't a breathe of wind when I played
2)  Fairways were wet with the rain and I was getting zero run
3)  It was overcast and drizzling for 3/4ths of the round.

P.S.  Garland, Chambers Bay is a far tougher walk than Palouse Ridge and I have it #1 on my list.  Doubt it would make much difference.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »
What kind of work did Harbottle do at Canterwood?

Canterwood is one of my favorite courses that I never like to admit that I like. :)

I got to play it a number of times, it was brutal, bizarre and beautiful all at the same time.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2012, 01:56:03 PM »
I agree with Sean, Kalen, and Mike's opinions on Tumble Creek, so I have nothing new to add.

However, golf holes do not come much prettier than this one...



That is one beautiful golf hole.

Joe Stansell

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2012, 02:02:37 PM »
Kalen,

I have walked Chambers Bay countless times. Its tough, but not daunting. I admit that I rode in a cart for my one and only round at Palouse Ridge. At the time I thought, "this course is not walkable" -- and I therefore judged it fairly low in my book (i.e., I'm not dying to go back). I'm stunned that you think its an easier walk than Chambers Bay.

As for the comparison between Chambers Bay and Wine Valley, I don't believe in half points.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 02:22:11 PM »
As someone who spent a decade on the Kitsap Peninsula, Canterwood is the other Doak 0 with Port Ludlow.

Oh, come on, Michael you are being a bit harsh. Port Ludlow is AT LEAST a Doak 1...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2012, 02:25:56 PM »
Kalen,

I have walked Chambers Bay countless times. Its tough, but not daunting. I admit that I rode in a cart for my one and only round at Palouse Ridge. At the time I thought, "this course is not walkable" -- and I therefore judged it fairly low in my book (i.e., I'm not dying to go back). I'm stunned that you think its an easier walk than Chambers Bay.

As for the comparison between Chambers Bay and Wine Valley, I don't believe in half points.

Joe,

You give me a choice of 10 rounds with a cart that I can use at either Palouse Ridge or Chambers and I pick 10-0 to use it at Chambers.

Other than the walk from 9 tee to 10 tee, there really aren't any other long walks going on.  The only other one I can think of is from 2 green to 3 tee, but its all downhill.

P.S.  I missed one 5 green to 6 tee.  Every other green to tee walk, other than the ones mentioned, are less than 100 yards, and most less than 75 yards.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 02:36:17 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Tumble Creek
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2012, 02:37:20 PM »
Kalen, come on...