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GeoffreyC

Yale restoration 2001
« on: December 04, 2001, 06:31:09 PM »
The talk of how great Yale could be fully restored has me sad and pissed off again.

We have gone over the rape of the front 9 at Yale several times on GCA and our infamous outing of May 2001 witnessed it in person.  The back nine work has started and it is MILES better then the front 9 work, however, we have already seen that careful research by George Bahto uncovered photos of #18 that show the newly restored right greenside bunker and green shape and size are clearly not in keeping with the original work. In fact that right greenside bunker on 18 that we saw in my photo was a second attempt. Apparently the first try was nixed by a committee and that sad bunker is the resulting acceptable one.

I have been told that my  

“criticisms of the work at Yale tend to
become very directed criticisms of Roger Rulewich.  In fact, I sense a very personal attack”.  

Isn't he the architect of record? He is being paid for this work at his old school and he will take credit for the work done.  Why not the criticism?

I was informed that

“It is not accurate to criticize Roger Rulewich for the shaping of any of the current bunker work.  Whether you do it or anyone else does it, it is done in error.  If one must criticize, then one must criticize the entire group involved.  But recognize that in that group are a number of intelligent people, using their best judgement to reconstruct a wonderful asset.”  

This group is composed of nine individuals, not in the business, that oversee Roger’s new work on the back nine. I guess there needs to be nine novice babysitters to oversee the work after what was done to the front 9! I recently went to Essex County CC where George is doing a restoration of 80 bunkers on that course.  The difference in attention to detail between Essex and Yale is striking to me.

At Yale they are supposedly going by a 1934 aerial to guide the restoration.  There are hundreds of construction photos as well but I don’t know if they are being utilized.

Here is a blowup of the bunker on the eden hole (#15) at Yale from the 1934 aerial.  There is clearly a moderate sized “finger” that extends up the right side of the green that creates a “sucker” pin on the front right. Below are two photos of the new restored bunker on #15 at Yale that Roger and the committee of 9 approved this fall.  I can see only a tiny finger that hardly extends up to the green.  No amount of recovering lost green space can recreate that sucker pin position with the new bunker as constructed.  The overall shape of the bunker is different as well. I wonder how many hours of research studying photos and looking for new photos went into this project?








This lack of attention to detail and supposed maintenance and drainage issues are in part why Yale will not be restored to its previous glory.  It will be considerably better then it was but it is an opportunity lost.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

cbradmiller

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2001, 03:16:14 AM »
Geoff, there you go again, but how rightly so! Having talked to Gil Hanse and Rodney Hine one day while they where visiting the USGA golf house, one begins to understand why their restoration work is so good, hard work, talent and the interest in studying their subject before they act. It is very sad that this type of work is not done by many others. (have also seen Mike DeVries work at Meadow Club, that same wonderful attention to detail looks you right in the face.)  Don't these people realize that over 75% of the classic McDonald/Raynor restorations have been or will be done by Doak or Hanse, just go to Doak's web site. To bad that this wonderful university can't get it right, will Yale GC be better when the current work is done... YES, but just a  gentlemen's "C" Their profs expect much more of their students. This course truly restored would be awesome.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2001, 04:58:31 AM »
Brad

It bothers me to see such an amazing golf course get less care then it deserves.

We already talked in the last month or so about the right greenside bunker on 18.  I can repost those pictures too.  Now take the bunker on 15 as an example.  It looks quite good, its fairly deep and it is in the Raynor style for sure but with all the documentation available its a case of style over substance. It has the form but lacks the substance.  If you measure the length of the finger relative to the length of the left greenside bunker in the aerial view, it is approximately 30% of its size.  The left greenside bunker is large!  The finger is no more then 3 feet in the new bunker.  The left greenside bunker is larger then 10 feet long. I'm assuming that the aerial view of the bunker is of sand at the bottom and not the slope.  Still, on the ground the new work will not FUNCTION exactly as intended bt Raynor. WHY?  Would Doak, Hanse/Kittleman/ Hine, Silva or other THOUGHTFUL restoration architects have made that mistake or let a committee of 9 nonarchitects make such an error? I think not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2001, 05:05:16 AM »
GeoffreyC,

Not to rub salt in the wound but...Yesterday I had a business trip in Hartford.  I was done a little to late to get to Yale so I went out and played Hartford Golf Club.  I was paired with a Cornell Grad.  We were talking about great architecture and I mentioned how I had never played Yale and had to get their one-day.  He told me that it was too late.  The great Yale Golf Club has been lost in shoddy maintenance and poorly thought out redesign.  He was not a GCA'er, not in the golf business and (Except for being from another Ivy League school) had no axe to grind.  Why is it that our nations classics (Especially at a place as steeped in tradition as Yale) do not treat the courses like classics?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2001, 05:43:33 AM »
David

Sorry I missed you. Next time you're in the area let me know.

Let me clearly state that I STILL love to play the Yale course.  There are thrilling moments in every round there and I always look forward to playing it.  I'm sure you would enjoy it too and I urge you to let me know when you come back to the area and we can play it together. Everything considered it is STILL one of the great designs in golf and deserving of its listing on the GW classic 100 list.  It should go higher on the list after the work is done, some additional trees cleared, the front 9 repaired and a new superintendent hired.

However, the course could be so much more and this is where I am so frustrated at the money wasted on the front 9 and the less then accurate work done on the back after realizing what a hatchet job was done to the front. If you saw the old photos you could see how much softening the place has seen over the years.  It could be right up there among the greats with a true restoration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cbradmiller

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2001, 06:04:23 AM »
To all those that haven't played Yale GC, Geoff's last comment is on point. Deserving of top 100 classic, (golfweek) and in my opinion it should be ranked higher than the 90's,. But, this could and should be a top 30 classic, it could be that good!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Huckaby (Guest)

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2001, 06:25:52 AM »
Amen, concur, agree.  While it's mind-blowing what Yale GC was and could be, it shouldn't be forgotten that this is one hell of a great course as it exists today.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
What to do, what to do
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2001, 08:14:45 AM »
The sole question is: what is the best course of action right now, December 5th?  

To do nothing is to resign oneself to defeat.

For instance, suppose a group came up with the money to specifically and fully restore the Alps or Double Punchbowl hole, PROVIDED that Yale GC let that group designate who did the actual work. Yale GC shouldn't mind provided it was a restoration effort that was agreed to in advance based strictly on photographic evidence.

The resulting attention to detail would be such that members would appreciate that the other 17 holes could/should be done in such a manner. And once the members begin to appreciate what they have and get behind a project, anything is possible.

I mention this specific hole at a time approach because it was highly successful at Yeamans Hall.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2001, 12:51:57 PM »
Ran

Can we take up a collection here on GCA? :)

This is just the type of approach I tried.  I started this whole new project myself by showing the current group  (one in particular) exactly how bad the front 9 work was.  I set him up with George Bahto and they spent numerous hours together and George drew up EXACT hole drawings for each hole at Yale. The/my/George's idea was to get the group to raise all the money and restore the back 9 fully and then go back and redo the front.

What you see being done (not by George anymore) is as I've said MILES better then before, and I really feel good about this and I think my efforts have not been fruitless. However, here is part of a response to my continued concerns now about some of the new work

"I do not believe that there is only one right
way to do this job.  What is important is to reintroduce the playing characteristics of the original bunkers.  But we also have to take into account the drainage requirements and the ongoing maintenance issues."

That quote may is true enough but you can see that two of the new bunkers (right side 18 and front 15) are off base and their continued use of Roger Rulewich who is clearly not doing any research is "dumbing down" this project.

I was asked if I wanted to contribute $$$ to the new project. I said that I would gladly pay for the whole damn thing myself if I had the money but I would do it my way  ;D .

Ran- its clear they don't want a true restoration. There are other factors they think are more important.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

John_Lovito

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2001, 01:16:28 PM »
GeoffreyC,

Have you had the opportunity to talk to Roger Rulewich about the work he has done to date?   If so, what was his defense, given all the available evidence that it is not true to the original design.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2001, 01:40:37 PM »
John

No I have not personally talked with Roger.  

Frankly, there is more good evidence to help with a true restoration then one could hope for.  There are excellent quality aerials from 1934 and 1940.  There are HUNDREDS of construction photos showing AMAZING detail and there are still quite a few old timers around who remember the course from the 1950's who could be contacted and who could tour the course with the architect to tell him exactly where things were. Linc Roden, a Yale alum, with his photographic memory for golf holes could be a great asset.  As far as I know none of these people have been asked to help.

In Roger's defense, he is probably giving the committee he has to deal with just what they want. He is currently doing exactly the job asked of him. I know that George has interacted with Roger and when he was asked what should be done clearly stated that only a full restoration would do and he told Roger all the photographic evidence he needs is available.

I like Roger's original work. I wish all these guys would leave the old classics alone.  I did have an opportunity to play golf with Roger at Metedeconk and I turned it down.  At that outing he spoke with an acquaintance of mine and said to him  "I'm a golf architect not a historian".   I think that quote speaks to the sensitivity he has to his old college golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2001, 03:26:30 PM »
Ran,
The approach you suggest sounds reasonable but probably wouldn't work. It would be impossible to dictate terms to an institutuion such as Yale. Additionally, the added cost of maintenance would need continual funding so an endowment of the hole would also be necessary.

Geoff,
I am sure you realize that politics are at the core of the present situation. I would offer an analogy. Many years ago we were erecting an 18th century barn for a client. This was our part of a major renovation happening to this client's estate. The architect, who oversaw all of the project, made mistakes on the foundation, the placement of door openings, where the "new" barn was attaching to an existing one, etc.. The architect was clearly out of his element with antique buildings. One day when we were up mortising plates on the second story the owner and architect showed up. My boss, in a fit of passion, called the architect an incompetent who didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground. Next thing I knew I was looking for a new job as the owner fired us all. The owner had already invested so much with the architect that if he were to go along with our assessment of this architect he would have looked the fool and that was not going to happen. He saved face by firing us.  
If the avenue pursued by GB didn't pan out then Yale GC will  probably have to suffer it's fate. It is a crying shame.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2001, 03:30:26 PM »
Geoffrey,

I apologize for not getting in touch with you.  One of the favorite aspects of my job is that I get to travel around the country and meet up to golf with friends.  It would be a blast to play Yale with you and have you describe the changes and alterations to me.    If it was June, I would have planned an early flight in or a later flight out and taken you up on a round.  What on earth was up with three consecutive days in the upper 60's in Connecticut in December.  I was kicking myself all day today that I did not plan golf time on this trip.  We will hook up for sure in the spring.  If you can promise me a repeat of this weather, I will come back immediately.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2001, 05:36:21 PM »
Geoffrey,

The project was flawed from the begining.

In your travels, have you ever come across a statue commerorating a committee ?

What was needed was a strong, knowlegeable project chairman and no committee, or a very small committee to insist on true restoration work, and oversee EVERY aspect of the job.

Until that happens, this project is a ruderless ship!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2001, 08:14:25 PM »
Geoffrey -

first thank you for the compliments -

second, you (lefty), are a very brave guy!!! -  and we should all applaud you for your untiring efforts to make that course what it should be and the stance you take!

I, and many other "members" here, know how difficult this stance has made it for you up there and yet you're willing to continue, spearheading those who are so concerned.

Sometimes I feel like I should re-write the Yale chapter in my book totally in the past tense.

Unbelievable, for, to me, this is one of Seth Raynor's top three courses.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

cbradmiller

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2001, 02:06:28 AM »
George, when is the book going to press?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2001, 03:52:26 PM »
Brad - they are waiting for my graphics - which I am catagorizing and placing into the text (which is already at the publisher).

It should out by late summer according to Sleeping Bear .....   (Schlepping Bare??)

This great weather here in the northeast has enabled me to continue working on a restoration but I'm sure the weather will turn very soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Top one of three?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2001, 06:18:03 PM »
George,

Fully restored, I am surprised that you wouldn't consider Yale to be Raynor's finest. It wears out Fishers with its superior greens and its best is better than FI's best (witness holes 8-10 at each course) and Lido, while remarkable at every level, didn't enjoy the expansiveness that makes Yale such a collosus.

Fully restored Yale vs. Fishers

1. Yale 1 up
2. Yale 2 up
3. Yale 2 up
4. Yale 1 up
5. all square
6. Yale 1 up
7. all square
8. Yale 1 up
9. Yale 2 up
10. Yale 3 up
11. Yale 2 up
12. Yale 3 up
13. Yale 4 up
14. Yale 3 up
15. Yale 3 up
16. ?????
17. Yale 4 up
18. Yale 5 up

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Anthony Pioppi

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2001, 01:09:18 PM »
One of the results of Geoff's constant and justified criticism of the work at Yale is that many members who use to be regular playing partners, now shun the good doctor. How childish. (There is also talk they are going to beat him up at recess!) The good side of all this, is that he calls me to join him for a round. At first I thought it was because he liked me.

My column in Superintendent News and Golfweek criticizing the work at Yale, has made me one of the less popular people as well, but since I'm not a member, I couldn't give a rat's rooper. (I think Geoff and I would make a lovely team for the member-guest.) Geoff, however, has to put up with their sh#* on a regular basis

Geoff's points about 15 are right on the money. Also, if you look at the second of his recent photos, the greenside bunker wall appears to be softer than Raynor/Banks/MacDonald designed. Geoff and I thought the same of the greenside bunkers on No. 11.

The good news from Yale is that a late-season aeration had the greens in the best shape they have been in for a number of years. A tree removal program is also helping. For instance, overgrowth on the left side of the 11th revealed more of the ledge wall that frames the hole behind a large bunker. We can only hope this continues.

Maybe someday Yale will regain it's lost glory and Geoff will be recognized as a major factor in the rebirth of the course. Maybe then he'll be asked to join a number of groups every weekend and be one of the most popular players. Maybe Yale will grant him a lifetime membership and name a watercooler after him. Until then, I hope he keeps asking me to play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2001, 01:22:51 PM »
Tony

See you tomorrow morning at 10.

The member guest next year is you and me baby! I can just see us coming up to pick up our prizes in front of the crowd :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Yale restoration 2001
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2001, 06:30:12 PM »
Ran: Yale vs Fishers Island

apples and oranges so i don't go there

to me, Yale, Lido and his re-do of Chicago in 1923 are grouped as his top 3 courses

the next level down, to me, there is a large group of courses
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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