The second best course in the Pinehurst area?

[Tony Ristola]

What's the second best course in the Pinehurst area?

[Ran Morrissett]

Tony,

Can you be more specific as to what you are after? For instance, Pine Needles is a bigger, brawnier test than Mid Pines but Mid Pines greens are 100% pure Ross while PN's were softened when they went with a faster grass.

As for 'experience,' Southern Pines and Forest Creek are tough to beat as you can play each in three hours and not see a sole.

Finally, any trip to the area should include Tobacco Road - one look at the pics in its course profile will tell you why!

Cheers,

[Scott_Burroughs]

Where would CCNC-Dogwood fit in?  It has long been thought of as one of the state's best.  I haven't played it, but have played the other 4 mentioned above.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I played ccnc dogwood and it was a very good course.

[john f]

Has to be your 2nd 18 @ #2 that day right?

I was a little dissapointed in Pine Needles (expected better Ross greens, now I know why - Thanks ran) but definetly enjoyed Tobacco Road.

[APBernstein]

Techincally, Mid Pines' greens are only 94% Ross unless the 9th green has been restored since I have last played.

Having played most of the courses in Pinehurst (besides the CCNC pair, which I believe to not be in contention anyway), I would say that there is not a second best course in Pinehurst.  However, there is a second tier of three courses: Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Forest Creek.  These three are all equally as worthy of that "2nd best" title but I personally can not distinguish a rating between them.

My best advice is to play them all.

All the best,

[jim lewis]

I agree with Andrew's observation that there is Pinehurst #2 and then a second tier of candidates for a distant second place. I would add CCNC-Dogwood to that second tier group.

I can understand and respect any suggestion that either Pine Needles, Mid Pines, or Dogwood is the second best course here, but my "unbiased" opinion is that Forest Creek is the second best course in the entire state of NC. That includes the often-overrated Wade Hampton (my opinion, of course).

I prefer not to think of Tobacco Road as being in the "Pinehurst area" since it is about 25 miles away and is out of character with anything else in Pinehurst (or the planet, for that matter).  Ran is the only local I know that would put TR in the top 10  within 50 miles of Pinehurst.

[Jeff Mingay]

I was very pleasantly surprised by Southern Pines when I played last February. Even though John LaFoy has fiddled with Ross' original work there, the course is very fun to play, and inexpensive to boot.

Southern Pines showcases a great Ross routing on an interesting property. Every hole is distinct and memorable, as a result of the brilliant way in which Ross used the native terrain.

SP is a perfect case study in how a good routing can sustain a course for all-time. A couple greens have been goofed up a bit, and the bunkering isn't that interesting or attractive, but still you want to play Southern Pines. And you enjoy it.

There are some simple little short par 4s there that are very neat; like the 10th, for example.

Why is it so difficult to play a straightaway hole? I suspect it has something to do with the fact that not many golfers can hit a straight ball.

Forest Creek isn't a bad course. But I felt lost out there. The routing seemed a bit awkward to me. There's some road crossings between holes, and houses all around. Perhaps the routing is awkward because of the related residential component in the development? Nonetheless, I lost my sense of direction after about four or five holes.

Still, FC was fun to play... especially with Jim Lewis, who's a members member. He loves Forest Creek. And I love it when golfers love their home course. I mean, Aberdovey can't be that good, but the way Darwin wrote about it he makes you wonder whether it (was) indeed one of the best in Britian!

Southern Pines might very well be the best bargin west of  Wilmington!

The only problem is you might get stuck playing with Ran in the sand hills

[cardyin]

Why is everyone discounting the other courses at Pinehurst?
Fazio's revision of #4--if one doesn't mind clusters of pot bunkers--is excellent.  #8 doesn't have the greatest property, but it also is excellent.  #7 may be a bit too much downhill to uphill,but it is a severe test of golf.  As a matter of fact, I also always liked No. 5 before it got smothered by housing, and it contains some of the best holes on the property.  Nos. 1 and 3 are pure Ross.
This year marked the sixth decade in which I have made the pilgrimmage to Pinehurst, and I can state unqualifiedly that it is by far the best it ever has been--courses and accommodations.  You can chalk that up to the fact that Hoosiers -- General Manager Pat Corso of Logansport and Director of Golf Don Padgett of New Castle -- run the place.
If CCA never does anything else, the investment it has made in Pinehurst and the resulting improvements alone have been worth its existence.
I always believed that the last 8 holes on the Dogwood course at CCNC are among the top 5 golfing experiences anywhere, and nothing has changed that opinion.  I also liked Forest Creek very much.  I played there twice in early August and didn't see anyone either time.  The (Pinehurst) National is a very demanding Nicklaus course, although the greens are a bit too snakingly free form, and its next-door neighbor, The
(Pinehurst) Plantation is a very strong course, about 3,900 from the back tees to the middle of the greens on the back nine.
Anyone who loves golf owes it to himself or herself to visit the Pinehurst area.

[APBernstein]

I think you will be hard-pressed to find many (if anyone) on this site who would describe Pinehurst #4 and #8 excellent.

I feel that #4 is the better of the two courses, but the 1st and 18th greens automatically disqualify it from being anywhere within a good 5 iron of excellent.

The 1st (the entire hole) at #8 does the same.

The courses are decent, at best.  No more than a 6 for either.

[abiggadike]

How is Pinehirst #4? I have heard comments like: "unbelievable" or "almost harder than #2."  But the sources are not the type of golfers who frequent this site, so I don't take it too seriously.

I find it hard to believe that it could even come close to standing up to #2.  Many say it's similar to it, but that's what they say about #8.

#8 is a good course, but in my opinion the only green on the course like anything on #2 is the ninth.

Andrew

[Paul Richards]

By far the second best course in the Pinehurst area (after
#2  ,of course) is CCNC-Dogwood.

It's a wonderful track, and probably underappreciated as
well.

[jim_lewis]

Jeff:

Your recollection of your charming host at Forest Creek is very generous, but your memory seems a little fuzzy regarding the course itself. Your comment about houses, especially on the front nine, puzzles me. At the time we played, there was exactly one house on the entire front nine and it sits across a ravine about 200 yards left of the seventh green. Due to a building ”boom” we now have a second house way left of the 3rd green and a third is under construction left of #8.  It is true that about 20 member “cottages” line the right side of the 11th fairway and the left side of #16. We have members from 29 states and almost all of those cottages belong to out-of-state members and are occupied only occasionally. In addition to the two “regular” houses on the front nine, there are 5 on #12, 1 one #13, and two on #15. All houses sit well back from the course and there are no O.B. stakes anywhere on the course. No houses will ever be built behind any green. I have played over 500 rounds on this course and I have never seen a shot wind up in anyone’s yard.

It is true that you have to cross streets four times (after #1, #4, #11, and  #15), but they are lightly traveled neighborhood streets. Unfortunately they lack character or quirkiness such at what you find at Yeomans Hall (where the entrance road crosses the 1st fairway), Merion (where you take your life in your hands crossing Ardmore Ave.), or Pine Valley and Yale where you have to play across the entrance road).

By the way, I have almost gotten lost at Forest Creek a few times my self, but only when looking for wayward shots.

Seriously now, I am always reluctant to comment about Forest Creek on this DG. Anything I say is likely to be viewed as self-serving. Yes, I do like the course and I think I will like the new course at least as much. I think it is one of Fazio’best, and the raters at GOLFWEEK seem to agree by ranking it #28 Modern. When I claim it is the second best course in NC, it’s kinda like my claiming to be the second tallest player on my high school basketball team. We only had one guy over six feet tall. In my opinion, North Carolina has lots of good courses, a few very good ones, but only one great course. FCGC is among the very good ones.

Southern Pines is truly a great bargain, but the best bargain in the Pinehurst area is #2, a bargain at any price!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jim,
    I can see how 500 rounds can blend in after a while, but to refresh your memory, in our four-ball match against you and head pro Waddy back in August, my partner knocked one in someone's yard to the right of #11 (and proceeded to make par!   ).  Still, only once in 500 rounds is still a drop in the bucket.  It is definitely isolated out there, even MJ's lots sit empty.

    And since when do road crossings mean anything?  Pebble Beach and Cypress Point have a few road crossings, in addition to Pine Needles, Oakmont (a freeway!), LuLu, Lehigh, Pasatiempo, Spyglass, Merion (above), etc.

[Frank Morris]

Paul-You have got to be kidding! CCNC #2? Ahead of all of the other really good courses? It's a 70's very forgettable lay-out with length the only measure of skill and boredom abounding. It shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with Forest Creek. If Buck Adams hadn't been the pro there for so long no one would have ever heard of it. In my opinion it is not in the top 10 in the county.

[Hart Huffines]

Its great to see Pinehurst back in debate on this forum.
My dad and a family friend got me hooked 20 years ago
and it will always be my home away from home.

Its true that old #2 is in a class of its own from an architectural viewpoint, but there is plenty of great golf close by.  I think its impossible to say one course is substantially better if you choose from CCNC Dogwood, Forest Creek,
Pine Needles, or Mid Pines.  So. Pines is also special but not
as much so as the others. Pinehurst #4 is a lot of fun but
I would play the others first.

In NC youre likely to find some housing around any course.
Thats no reason to take something away from the design
and playbility though.

Like Jim with Forest Creek, I am partial to CCNC (as a member) because I have had so much fun there and it used to be my favorite place to play 27 or 36 in a day.  It will be again soon after the Cardinal course renovation is completed.  But Forest Creek may have 36 holes by then too.  The debate will go on and on... preferably at the Pinecrest.  I'll buy the
first round.

[jim_lewis]

Scott:

I stand corrected!  I should have said that I don't REMEMBER
a shot winding up in a yard. I imagine it happens occasionally, especially on the outside of the dogleg on #11.

The issue of houses and streets is an interesting one. How close does a house need to be to the course to be considered "on the course"?  To me it is a question of whether a house (or its occupents) create a distraction and influence play.  The presence or absence of OB stakes is a important indicator, to me. CCNC-Dogwood is a good example of a course that has many houses on the course, but they are set far enough back that they are a non-issue, and they have no OB.

As you (and I) imply, we generally overlook streets and road crossings on the great courses. It bothers me only when they are very numerous (Old North State) or become a safety hazard (Merion and Wilmington Muni) or influence the routing of the course (Oakmont).

The only course I ever was literally lost on was Bandon Dunes. I ducked into a jiffy john and my caddy and playing partners kept going. When I emerged I took the wrong fork in the path and was temporarily lost. My caddy was more embarrassed than I. You could probably also get lost at Galloway National without a caddy. Jeff is the first player I have known to feel lost at Forest Creek.  

[Paul Richards]

Frank:

I guess our opinions diverge on this one.  Forest Creek,
while very nice, doesn't hold a candle to CCNC.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

[EBS (Guest)]

Paul Richards is right on this one.....CCNC Dogwood...hands down.