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Patrick_Mucci

Is "playability"
« on: March 19, 2012, 11:33:42 PM »
the ultimate test for architecture ?

Is everything else just window dressing ?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 11:51:45 PM »
If you mean that the architecture should be more focused on serving a broad spectrum of players through variety and interest instead of just length and toughness than I'd say yes, playability is the ultimate test.

But don't you have to have the proper arrangement and amount of window dressing to make that happen, and make the course 'good'?     

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 11:53:49 PM »
If you mean that the architecture should be more focused on serving a broad spectrum of players through variety and interest instead of just length and toughness than I'd say yes, playability is the ultimate test.

But don't you have to have the proper arrangement and amount of window dressing to make that happen, and make the course 'good'?     


I'm not sure.

Does TOC require such window dressing ?

 

Jason Topp

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 12:06:25 AM »
Yes and no.  If that were the standard wouldn't Pine Valley fail?

Sam Morrow

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 12:08:31 AM »
I think it's important but not the ultimate test.

Mark_F

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 12:54:39 AM »
the ultimate test for architecture ?

Is everything else just window dressing ?

No.

Interest is the ultimate test.  You have to want to play the course.

David_Elvins

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 01:43:29 AM »
Of course, Patrick.

Golf Course architecture is a combination of Playability (how it plays) and aesthetics (how it looks).
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Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 06:48:10 AM »
Pat, in "testing architecture" what part will you allow time to play?
 
Or is playability timeless?
@theflatsticker

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 09:29:24 AM »
David,

The 1950-60 era architects who taught me architecture often spoke of the "design triangle" or playability, aesthetics and maintenance requirements ALL needing to be met to some degree.  I noticed that the last version of Cornish and Graves "Golf Course Design" put "Environment" in the middle of the triangle.

I suppose each of the triangle points might even have their own dangling triangles below - for playability it might be "good player, average player, beginner, for example.  Maintenance would be environment, minimizing inputs and matching maintenance regimen.  Aesthetics could probably remain aesthetics alone.

Pre 1990, most courses in the post WWII probably had pretty equal triangles, or maybe ones tilted to the maintenance side a bit.  With the advent of tour pros in design, and the one upmanship boom of the 1990's, most designs focused on the aesthetics and then playability (for good players more than likely necessary) and the maintenance side of the triangle got pretty skinny in comparison to the other two.

The short answer to Pat's question is, that for a professional architect, in most cases, all three points of the triangle must be appropriately addressed.  A great challenge for good players isn't really  a great course unless it accomodates other levels of play (flexible), drains well, and looks fairly decent, although, as always the aesthetics side is hardest to quantify.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David_Elvins

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 05:48:36 PM »
Thanks Jeff,  Good points.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Anthony Gray

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 09:29:24 PM »


  I think at one time difficult ment good. Now maybe fun is good.

  Anthony


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 10:03:15 PM »
Yes and no.  If that were the standard wouldn't Pine Valley fail?


Not at all, it would pass with flying colors

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 10:08:19 PM »
"playability" applies to to the broad spectrum of golfers with a bit of a disregard for the extremes

Jason Topp

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 10:57:39 PM »
Yes and no.  If that were the standard wouldn't Pine Valley fail?


Not at all, it would pass with flying colors


Really?  Forced carries, junk everywhere, punishing bunkers?  I have not been there but do you care to explain?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 11:02:42 PM »
Yes and no.  If that were the standard wouldn't Pine Valley fail?


Not at all, it would pass with flying colors


Really? 

Forced carries,

Where ?  From what tees ?   How forced are they ?


 junk everywhere,

What junk ?
The fairways are 40-50 yards wide


punishing bunkers? 

How are the bunkers anymore punishing than any other club's bunkers ?


I have not been there but do you care to explain?

If you haven't been there, in what context would you evaluate my explanation/s ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2012, 11:07:37 PM »
the ultimate test for architecture ?

Is everything else just window dressing ?

No.

Interest is the ultimate test.  You have to want to play the course.

Mark,

If I take one, two, three, four or five football fields and place them end to end, put a tee in one end and a cup in the other, and bet you on who can get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes, we've created plenty of interest, all the interest you need.

It's the golfer's interaction with the playing surfaces which gives architecture it's life.


Mike Hendren

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 12:14:57 PM »
"playability" applies to to the broad spectrum of golfers with a bit of a disregard for the extremes

Exactly what I was thinking, but:  where would you draw the line on "extremes?"

On one end, professional tour members?    Don't think so.
On the other end:  Those that can't break 100?  Perhaps, but you just eliminated a surprisingly large percentage of recreational golfers and kicked sand in the face of the "grow the game" crowd.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 12:17:31 PM »
Also, is playability as relevant where the game is contested at match play?

More often than not I feel great relief, as opposed to frustration or disappointment, when I pick my ball up. 

Declaring "uncle" can be the product of great architecture as well.

Bogey
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 12:19:18 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jason Topp

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 01:12:38 PM »


If you haven't been there, in what context would you evaluate my explanation/s ?[/b][/size][/color]


Pat:

I am interested in whether you have a different definition of "playability" than I do.

As to Pine Valley, the best I can do is photo tours, descriptions and photos of the course in books and magazines, a program from the Walker Cup and other similar materials. 

I define "playability" as allowing all levels of player (or the vast majority) to get around the course and both be challenged and have an enjoyable experience.

It is beyond reasonable dispute that other courses are more "playable" than Pine Valley, at least as I define the term.  For example, Pinerhurst No. 2 is much more "playable" than Pine Valley. Anyone can finish that course with the same ball he or she started with.  The course provides an interesting  challenge for the best players in the game. Does that mean Pinehurst is a better course?  To me - no.  It is a point in No.2's favor but a factor that can be overriden.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2012, 11:23:47 AM »
Jason,

Finishing the round with the same ball you started with is hardly a criterion for establishing the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2012, 11:31:53 AM »
Jason,

Finishing the round with the same ball you started with is hardly a criterion for establishing the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.
Isn't it?  It seems to me that Alistair Mackenzie would probably have felt that it was.  If it isn't, why isn't it?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2012, 11:37:19 AM »
Jason,

Finishing the round with the same ball you started with is hardly a criterion for establishing the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.
Isn't it?  It seems to me that Alistair Mackenzie would probably have felt that it was.  If it isn't, why isn't it?

Because it precludes OB, water hazards, woods and the possibility of a lost ball.

Pine Valley, Augusta, Seminole, Cypress Point, Winged Foot, Merion, Pebble Beach and probably most, to all of the great courses would fail your test.

Don't believe everything you read, lost balls are a distinct possibility, if not a good probability at ANGC and CPC, two Mackenzie courses.

"Think" before you type ;D

Sean_A

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Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 03:01:28 AM »
Yes, finishing with the same ball is one reason cited for Pinehurst's greatness.  I think the subtext of that is the greens are a bugger.  For the one ball folks, do you think chipping and putting are not part of playability?  I spose strictly speaking they are playable, but perhaps not as enjoyable or with the variety one may want to see. 

Playability is surely sliding scale with the tendency toward top players not being challenged on very playable courses and on the other end of the scale high cappers not being able to get around meaning the course isn't very playable.  I think Pinehurst is often mentioned as very playable because all classes of golfers can get around and the big boys are extremely challenged - quite a rare feat to pull off.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 04:39:19 AM »
Playability or the ability of the player to play golf?

All golf courses are playable, but the ultimate test is to challenge the skill range of the Members and Visitors alike, irrespective of their handicap.  That is what I believe a Designer is required to achieve to qualify as being a golf course designer. Alas today too many Design Houses split the functions of a designer into too many boxes missing that special spiritual oneness that a designer can achieve. Perhaps that’s the reason why we have Golden Ages, the last one being nearly a century ago, perhaps that tells an interesting tale.

Making design too complicated and sharing out that workload is generally a formula to disaster or the inability to treat GCA with the respect it deserves.  That is not to say good designers do not exist, but if you water down talent as that old saying ‘too many cooks…’ must surely reflect upon the state of the industry over the last few decades.

Playability or Designability of the individual designer is the ultimate test for architecture or is that just window dressing for the modern Design House?

The further the game travels from its core, the weaker the game, the design and those tests which makes us golfers. That actual development of skill by rising to the tests and challenges of an integrated design that’s working with the land and in total harmony with all the environmental conditions is what attracted many to the game in the first place.

Just straight forward honest design that respects the land not these massive terraforming expensive white elephants that never quite seems to light up the face of golfers i.e. the Castle Course St Andrews.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:16:23 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is "playability"
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 06:49:27 AM »

Yes, finishing with the same ball is one reason cited for Pinehurst's greatness.

Who cites that as a reason for Pinehurst's greatness ?
Evidently you've never played Pinehurst # 2.
what happens when you hit it OB on #'s 1, 2 or 5, or lose a ball in the woods at any of the other holes ?


I think the subtext of that is the greens are a bugger.  For the one ball folks, do you think chipping and putting are not part of playability?
  I spose strictly speaking they are playable, but perhaps not as enjoyable or with the variety one may want to see. 

Playability is surely sliding scale with the tendency toward top players not being challenged on very playable courses and on the other end of the scale high cappers not being able to get around meaning the course isn't very playable.  I think Pinehurst is often mentioned as very playable because all classes of golfers can get around and the big boys are extremely challenged - quite a rare feat to pull off.

Not at all, it's primarily a function of length,

ANGC is a perfect example


Ciao

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