Punchbowl greens - Seen any built lately ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I was thinking of holes with punchbowl greens that I enjoyed.  Holes like # 1-4th nine at Montclair, # 3 at Westhampton, and # 14 at Essex County East.

I was also trying to remember if I had played a fairly modern course with a punchbowl green and couldn't remember any.

What are your favorite punchbowl greens ?

What holes do you think fare best by having a punchbowl green, a par 3, par 4, or par 5 ?

At what distance are they the most effective ?

Why aren't more punchbowl greens being designed and built ?

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

From what I can work out, punchbowl greens were extremely popular in the very early days of golf course architecture.  But there seems to have been a backlash against them by the first great UK architects:  Folwer, Colt, Mackenzie, Abercrombie et al.  I think the common thought was that these greens were too fluky, and a poor shot would gather close to the hole.  A lot punchbowl greens on the ancient links were abandoned for this reason. Colt's resdesign of several holes at Royal County Down is good example: blind holes to punchbowl greens that he did away with.  

But it should be noted that these architects didn't want to do away with these greens entirely!

Favourites of mine:

9th Hoylake
15th Sleepy Hollow
10 Painswick
3rd Burnham and Berrow
6th Western Gailes (sort of)

I think they are most effective with a long approach (although my favourite at Hoylake is quite short!).

[corey miller]

     

     Two I have played #4 fishers are par four ~400 which was a three shot hole the day I was there and #7 Greenwich a long par four.

     I am very partial to Sleepy Hollow #15 which is 514 pare five and as you approach the punch bowl you start seeing the palisades in the distance and then descend to the green with the hudson in view.

    I also really like the distance on this hole in conjunction with the punch bowl as I think the par 4.50 works really well with this greensite.  The third shot (if needed) is one of the most fun little shots anywhere.  Maybe the punchbowl works best with half shot holes?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I wouldn't be surprised that agronomics may be part of the reason fewer punch bowl greens are built today. Having the greens surrounds drain onto the putting surface is always a cause for concern, and with a punch bowl green most of the surrounds would drain onto the green. Back when courses relied on mother nature for moisture or on all sand based courses, draining onto the green is less of a concern. I'd like to hear from some of the archies here to see how much drainage issues like this influence their designs.  

[TEPaul]

Mountain Lake's #15 after the Silva work is certainly a punchbowl---it has some of the steepest sides I've seen cut to greenspace--the rear is quite steep too.

[Paul_Turner]

Corey

I thought of the 7th at Greenwich too, but wasn't sure whether to include it or not.  It's certainly sunken but I can't remember if the green contours gather to the centre.  

As I remember the green contours at Sleepy's 15th do gather gently into the centre.

Is a sunken green a punchbowl?  Or should the green gather to the centre for a true punchbowl?

[noonan]

Wildwood CC in Middletown OH had a punchbowl green.

#13....310 par 4.......there is a large gully in front of the green and OB behind.....

There is an 10 foot area all around the punchbowl that will put the pin on occasionally what a treat that is.

JK

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

Would you consider # 16 at NGLA a true punchbowl, or a hybrid ?

Don Mahaffey,

The ones I've seen are canted to drain the surface water to the lower side.

[Evan Fleisher]

Not sure if you would really consider this one a punchbowl green, but if so it is a pretty modern one...the par-5 13th hole at Strantz's Tobacco Road. BTW...that is ME standing there holding the flag, and I'm about 5'9"...a bit tall wouldn't you say!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Evan,
Before I reached your pic, I was thinking of TR #13, too.  Your pic makes it look like the fairway is in front of you when in factor it's to your left over the hillock.

Here's pics showing the green and fairway more:





and from the fairway:

[Chris Kane]

#11 on the National (Moonah Course).

[tonyt]

And Chris, #8 at Thirteenth Beach (medium length par 4).

That's my favourite in or around Melbourne. I love it, with shorter hitters (like moi) also semi-blind for our second.

[tonyt]

Just realised, so is #18.

[Brian Phillips]

I think punchbowl greens were designed to help irrigate greens as in the old days there was no irrigation.  The punchbowl design help create rainfall runoff onto the greens.

With the modern irrigation system there is no need anymore a punchbowl design.  The last thing a Super. needs is water flooding his greens after rainfall.  Modern greens are design to have water runoff the greens not onto them.

Brian

[TEPaul]

Brian:

Retaining water was certainly the purpose in the old days but something definitely not necessary any longer. The punchbowl green I mentioned at Mountain Lake, however, is unusual and impressive for something just created recently as it appears so dramaticlly to be a "bowl". On close inspection, however, one can see that it actually is designed to "sheet drain" water off of it in one section. That fact is apparently not particularly noticeable to most. It's also unusual in that it's on a very flat landform. In other words, to be outside the bowl (off the green) is quite and experience to both play and to see.

It doesn't seem to be particularly popular with the membership at the moment, maybe having somewhat to do with the fact it's on the receiving end of a short par 4 and it's playability is sooo collecting into the middle. I hope they leave it alone though with the possible exception of tweaking the rear floor of it to create a bit more interest, particularly in putting.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

I like punchbowl greens a lot, and I've built quite a few of them.  Someone mentioned the ninth at Riverdale Dunes on another thread -- that's not only a punchbowl, but a Dell.

The tenth at High Pointe is a true punchbowl at the top of a hill (an Alps type hole, but no blind bunker).  It doesn't surface drain out the green, but it works anyway.

Pacific Dunes has several greens that are punchbowl-like:  2, 9 upper, 12 and 18, depending on your definition.

Also:  Village Club at Sands Point #17 (a half punchbowl), The Legends Heathland #10, Texas Tech #13, and Cape Kidnappers #18.

I don't think of that Tobacco Road green pictured above as a punchbowl.  Surely the setting is, but when the whole thing is surrounded by trouble so you seldom get a favorable bounce onto the green, you're missing a big part of what the punchbowl is about.

[James_Livingston]

Chris Kane/TonyT
I'm not sure the holes you've cited are really very good examples of punchbowl greens.  The only example that really comes to mind is the 15th on the Ocean course at the National, which is a terrific example of this type of green.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

The 14th at Red Tail in Devens, MA is a dramatic punch bowl green.  It's also a Brian Silva design.  It plays 441 yards from the back tees, but the tee is quite elevated, so it doesn't play that long.

The approach shot to the green is mostly blind; you can see the top of the flag stick, but not much else.  The green slopes dramatically from front to back, and from right to left.  Most approach shots will end up back left, and I have yet to see the hole cut there.

Here are some pictures from the Red Tail web site that fail to do it justice:

http://www.redtailgolf.net/newsite/hole14.htm

[Forrest Richardson]

I think a punchbowl green has to be completely lowered into the grassed landscape with no surface drainage going out. I suppose the term "semi-punchbowl" is the almost-there version. Yes -- these were probably built in early days to focus natural precipitation to the putting surface. And yes -- they are rare now-days as a result of the desire (and need) to drain putting surfaces, thus coming closer to the "perfect-all greens are identical" ideal. And also, yes -- It would be neat to see more effort to bring back the punchbowl. We created a punchbowl area on a green which was the result of an unforeseen well that could not be moved. This meant retaining a slope near a green and we opted to simply allow the green to be flanked by a slope instead of letting it drain out as was originally planned. Extra drainage was added and we've provided good GPS records of where and how everything was built.

[Robert_Walker]

St Andrew's in Hastings on Hudson has a punchbowl green on one of inward holes.

[john_stiles]

Hole #16 ( short, uphill, par 4 ) at Augusta Country Club has  a punchbowl green.  Always interesting to see where you finish ..... after a good or poor shot.  Just as interesting to watch  incoming shots and see where they finish.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Robert Walker,

I played at St Andrew (NY) a few times in 1999 and don't remember a punchbowl green on the entire golf course.

Was there a punchbowl green before Nicklaus altered the golf course ?

[Eric Pevoto]

9th hole at french creek during grow in (taken today)



Middle approach



Looking back from back right/ten tee

[SPDB]

Pat -
In redesigning (some of) the back nine at Bedford G&T Club, Ken Dye built (what I can only assume he thought was) a punchbowl green on 14. In trying to add some teeth to the hole he moved an admittedly boring greensite from a little valley to up on the hill, and surrounded it with a 5 foot berm on all sides except the green front. It is attacked with a long iron, making stopping the ball on the green very difficult.

The problem is that the berm literally rises from the green edge, and so what you are often left with when you run your approach through the green (because it can't be accessed via the ground), is a lie that is some 45 degrees to the green surface, which is right in front of you. A horribly designed hole.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Redanman,

#17 at Innescrone banks from right to left, but I don't see the punchbowl nature of that green.  How do you see it as a punchbowl ?