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Will MacEwen

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2012, 10:27:00 PM »
Bandon is the least resorty resort I have ever visited. 

They don't push services or upgrades/upcharges.  If you don't take caddies, they don't make you feel like a piker.

You can get a good burger and fries for $8, and if you go in offseason the cost is reasonable.

An encounter with Marshalls or other staff is rare and pleasant - you are pretty much out on your own on the courses.

They let my group tee off on Pacific one day when the course was closed for an NCAA tournament.  We had booked first, so it was my threesome followed by the varsity squads.  We were off-season cheapskates, sans caddies.  I don't no many golf resorts that would let that slide - they would shut the course right down and shunt you over to another course. 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2012, 10:29:12 PM »
The "vs" does not belong. Mike Keiser wanted to build a sort of American facsimile of the great UK courses. A facsimile could never capture the culture, the history or the soul of the original. It might, however, develop a culture, history or soul of its own. Recognizable but wholly different at the same time. And that's okay even if it's not entirely original.

  You can't find those cliffs in the UK. Or the remoteness.

  Anthony



Cruden Bay?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2012, 10:41:53 PM »
Imagine Bandon 160 years ago and the Coquille Indians/Native Americans were living a life of subsistence from the bountiful forests, rivers and ocean.

Then the Gold Rush and all Native Americans were captured or killed.

Then in the 1990's Mike Keiser starts Bandon Dunes with the help of Howard McKee.

Think about it.

Now we have golf as it was meant to be...

It's all about the golf!

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2012, 10:50:39 PM »
P.S.  That being said, I would find it even harder to justify a trip to the UK.  With the brutal exchange rate/lousy weather/lack of highway infrastructure...combined with outrageous green fees for select courses like TOC, that's not on my schedule anytime soon either.

Kalen,
You seem uninformed about playing golf in the UK.  

I've played somewhere between 40 & 50 combined rounds in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England.  I've never been rained on for more than a few holes in any round, and rarely have seen any rain other than drizzle. I'm sure I've been lucky to some extent, but my luck with rain has been much better in GB&I than at Bandon.

Some courses have more difficult access, but overall highway infrastructure is fine, especially in England.

You might try putting together a trip to GB&I and compare costs to Bandon. Unless you intend to play TOC or Muirfield every day, it's not accurate to characterize overseas fees as outrageous.  A summer day at Bandon costs $345, after all, and you're required to stay on property if you want to make tee times well in advance.

I think the two biggest issues in the comparison are convenience and non-golf experience.  From a travel point of view, those living in the eastern part of the US can get to GB&I as quickly as to Bandon.  In your part of the country, Bandon is more convenient.  There's also the convenience factor of being able to stay on site at Bandon and have easy access to a multitude of really good courses.  If you're in GB&I and want a lot of variety, you will need to travel a bit.

As to non-golf experience, I didn't get any real sense of culture at Bandon. It feels like a resort, albeit one that is clearly golf-oriented.  For some people that's fine or even what they want, but I enjoy feeling a bit more of a connection to the place I'm visiting.

Brent, I think you can have a great time with either destination.  I would ignore the arguments made by people that have only been to one of the options, though.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2012, 10:53:36 PM »
Bandon is a great golf resort, but it IS a resort. I love Bandon, but when you're there it is a totally "all in" experience... you play their courses, you sleep in their beds, you eat their food. It's all good, but it's not the same as visiting the UK and experiencing the golf culture there. I could put together 20 different trips to the UK that would satisfy me more than visiting Bandon... and, yes, cost would be an integral part of the decision equation.

I think every GCA nut should visit Bandon, but east-coasters can get a much bigger bang for their buck going the UK. Maybe Streamsong or Novia Scotia will give the UK a run for its money.

All things being equal (and they are obviously not) I'd rather go to Barnbougle than Bandon.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2012, 12:41:42 AM »
I have 3 trips to GB&I and 2 trips to Bandon under my belt.  Both are wonderful.  If your goal is to play as much top quality golf as you're physically capable of, there's no better place on the planet to do it than Bandon IMO.  The price comparison is a bit off.  Sure there are plenty of interesting secondary courses one can play for less money.  Bandon doesn't have secondary courses.  The proper comparison is a tour of big name courses in GB&I with a driver.  That will inevitably involve more money and travel time.  Culture is great, and playing 36 a day on Old Mac and Pac Dunes is all the culture I need.  I have the best cuisine, museums, theater and sporting events at my doorstep at home.  I travel for golf...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2012, 01:07:09 AM »
Jud,

Quote
I have the best cuisine, museums, theater and sporting events at my doorstep at home.

You live simultaneously in Paris, Florence, New York and Melbourne?! ;D

I don't travel to experience things better than what I have at home. I travel to experience things that are different to what I have at home.

But your point is a fine one as far as the concentration of golf at Bandon. The best I can think of in GB&I as far as sheer quality of golf in a tight area is perhaps Sunningdale, Swinley Forest and The Berkshire within a ~2500-acre parcel.

Mark_F

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2012, 03:35:30 AM »
I don't travel to experience things better than what I have at home. I travel to experience things that are different to what I have at home.

That's why you would go the UK, of course.  Go to the USA, and all you get are tiresome Redan renditions one after the other. 

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2012, 04:21:14 AM »
I have no doubt if I visited Bandon I'd absolutely love the golf, going back to Adrian's earlier post I just couldn't see myself travelling there on a special trip from the UK.

Kalen - have you ever been to the UK or are you getting your info from Beano?

We explained the £/$ issue earlier - we are both weak on the world stage.
Lousy weather - the west coast of Britain and Ireland is wetter and greener, by and large the east coast is dry. I'm pleased every corner of your great country enjoys a daily 70 degrees with light breezes, no humidity and little rain.
Highways - our motorway and A road system is extensive, economics states you do not have a 6 lane highway leading to a 2000 strong coastal village. The west coast of Wales, Scotland and Ireland is pretty sparsely populated, the land more hilly and mountainous and the roads slower and less straight, it's beautiful so enjoy the drive.
Finally TOC is the home of golf and a round is approx $210 bookable from the previous September, that less than 1/2 the cost of Pebble Beach or Pinehurst No2.

If you want to guarantee a TOC round the package is $3300 for a 3 nights, Pinehurst is $2300 for 2 nights. Each package includes accommodations, loads of golf, transfers and a round on the "special one".
Cave Nil Vino

Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2012, 06:54:15 AM »
The proper comparison is a tour of big name courses in GB&I with a driver.  That will inevitably involve more money and travel time.  Culture is great, and playing 36 a day on Old Mac and Pac Dunes is all the culture I need.

Jud,

You've nailed it. That is exactly the comparison at which Bandon totally hits a home run. For my part, I would never even remotely consider joining a group of guys hiring to van+driver to cover 1,200 miles and twelve courses in seven days all over Scotland or that sort of thing. Too expensive, too tiring and just too overwhelming. By comparison a high-season week in Bandon is a bargain and is bog-simple to arrange. That's pretty much what I was referring to earlier as the sort of trip with my buddies which is the question to which Bandon is the perfect answer.

If your criteria for a great golf experience are

a) how much golf can you play in a week
b) how many different top-notch courses can you see in a week and
c) how close to the very best courses in the world can those courses be

then it's either a trip to Bandon or the sort of Grand Tour you mention in the UK or Ireland. The only reason I'm even considering Bandon is because I'd never be willing to take on a Grand Tour type of thing. My "vs." is implicitly between two types of golf vacations, not two destination per se. Perhaps I should have subtitled it "Many Rounds on Many Great Courses vs. Hanging Out For a Week and Playing One Great Course Several Times".

My trip last time to the UK was as enjoyable as any of the three before it. It was only six days, I played only one round a day, I only played four courses and two (arguably three) of those courses were what you might consider "secondary" ones. But each round was memorable and when I wasn't playing golf I was "hanging out" in a most relaxing and interesting way in the small English town where my trip was based.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2012, 07:00:30 AM »
Brent,

When I'm planning trips now I always try to include a couple of "secondary" courses.

I'll hazard a guess that the round at Crowborough didn't feel like a "secondary" day of your trip to you and, similarly, in a week in which I played Alwoodley and played Dornoch and Brora twice each, easily as enjoyable and memorable were my rounds at Crail and Golspie.

Those simple, natural, lower-tier courses of GB&I are a drawcard in their own right if you're that way inclined.

Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2012, 07:08:42 AM »
B) you already have a pre-conceived idea that you may not really love Bandon as, although it has 4 great courses, it's still a resort, doesn't have the quaint B&B, local flavour etc and there is too much to take in in 4 courses.

I agree that ultimately, without having seen it myself it's not really possible to know much because other people's impressions are filtered through their own preferences and expectations. But the final point about "too much to take in" is definitely something I do know about myself. As I've mentioned, over the course of my own modest golf travel experience I've found that multiple plays of one or two courses is more enjoyable than seeing four (or six or eight) different courses.

Quote
My view is that comparing Bandon to links courses in the UK is a pointless exercise. They are too different. Suggesting that the Bandon courses are a fine attempt at recreating the "originals" doesn't resonate with me. The courses in Bandon are originals - nothing like anything you will find anywhere else...

...go see it for yourself and then make up your mind. You've already seen England - you love it - so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

Well I'm not totally shooting for a fair comparison but point taken. Lest I be accused of trying to rig an argument let me say that before posing this question here and reading all the back-and-forth I was definitely leaning toward a return to England but rather confused in my own mind as to why the Bandon option didn't seem more appealing this time around. I can honestly admit that I'm still leaning toward the UK trip but now my own thinking is much clearer on the pluses and minuses.

For me the choice is almost purely between novelty, a sense of discovery and the pleasurable overload of so many great golf courses back to back to back to back and just "hanging out" (as I keep saying) in a spot I've at least seen before and where I can still play one very fine course. A week of adventure vs. going and hiding out for a week, basically.

Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2012, 07:19:11 AM »
I'll hazard a guess that the round at Crowborough didn't feel like a "secondary" day of your trip to you...

Those simple, natural, lower-tier courses of GB&I are a drawcard in their own right if you're that way inclined.

One more quick reply before going off to start the work-week. We ended up at Crowborough almost entirely based on convenient location to meet up on my way from the airport. Especially once our little foursome formed up (one of those fortuitous events that seem to happen only wherever GCA folk are involved!) I'd have been happy playing 'most anywhere. But as you point out, in my memory that round was every bit as "primary" so to speak as the rounds at better-known (or frankly just better) courses later in the week. The front nine in particular was very fine although there was a stretch late in the round that was maybe a bit plainer.

It takes an actually bad golf course to make me think while playing it "Man, I could be playing [fill in the blank great course] right now instead of this place". And I'd have to wrack my memory for any bad courses on my four trips. A lot of ones inclination has to do with whether "not the best possible course it would be physically possible to play today" equates to "bad" when on a golf vacation. If nothing less than the very best will do (to cop a line from an advert) then yeah, you skip the Crowborough Beacons and for that matter might not play at Crail or most other places either.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2012, 07:44:35 AM »

The Royal and Ancient Game of Golf can be played in many parts of the world that is in no doubt. However, can that be said about courses based upon the same principles? Can they reflect Nature, the natural or just as importantly be sustainable in their environment. In fact does playing that game within the said environment equate to similar courses worldwide or are we entering the pointless yet vain world of rating/lists courses.

Brandon vs. the UK, interesting comparison, but then what about The UK vs. Brandon, just look at the expense of travelling, accommodation etc., etc, can the same not be said albeit in reverse. I have not ventured to the North of America, nor have I any plans to do so, but that is not a criticism of the culture perhaps if anything perhaps more to do with the perceived American game and my current inability to play golf. Or simply scared of being seen to endorse No Walking Courses, even to sponsoring carts or upholding the 6 hour round. Who knows, because I just have not found the compelling need to sample those beautiful super watered and manicured courses set out more to resemble a park than my true love a links course. Or is it the Scottish blood within me and its dislike of spending good money when I have about me some wonderful courses?

My fear if I ever decided to venture forth, is that I would not taste the variety of golf in the true sense of the word because I would want to concentrate on the great well known courses Augusta, NGLA, Merion etc. etc, while I suspect trying to compare them to something similar back in the UK. What a waste that would be trying to compare any course with another instead of just going out and doing the very thing you went there to do. That of enjoying the unknown, that virgin experience of the courses, not quenched by just a single round in the day but certainly requiring at least two round just to try to get the feel certainly not to understand the course after just two rounds.

We travel vast distances and at great expense to each individual just to play a course, but we do not take the time to enjoy, to look and learn the real quality that has stood the test of generations of golfers. No, of course not, we try and cram in as much as is possible to obtain value for money, but that does not help or enhance ones understand of the game or the new courses, all that does is state that this golfer has played that course, understand and learning little and if the truth was told not really fully enjoying the experience as it only offered a few seconds of itself, but never the full picture.

So is it Brandon vs. the UK or the UK vs. Brandon unless you savour the moment and repeat it at least once you have very little chance of getting to know the course that you have travel thousands of miles to play. It’s nearly as futile as comparing courses with each other in different environments, but then I suppose there are those who just feel the need to try and obtain this perfect abstract image of their ideal course – well in their humble opinion.

My answer, I just do not know, but more importantly do you?

Melvyn 

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2012, 09:19:37 AM »
Brent,

When I'm planning trips now I always try to include a couple of "secondary" courses.

I'll hazard a guess that the round at Crowborough didn't feel like a "secondary" day of your trip to you and, similarly, in a week in which I played Alwoodley and played Dornoch and Brora twice each, easily as enjoyable and memorable were my rounds at Crail and Golspie.

Those simple, natural, lower-tier courses of GB&I are a drawcard in their own right if you're that way inclined.

It's perfectly feasible ONLY to play 'secondary' courses in the UK, never spend more than £50 a round, and still experience great golf course architecture. You've only got to read the contributions of Sean Arble and Mark Rowlinson to see that.

I'd love to visit Bandon for the experience, but failing a lottery win know that I never will. Am I disppointed?




Not really...


... there are not enough years left for me to see all the great golf within 200 miles of my front doorstep.





« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 09:24:18 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2012, 10:06:13 AM »
Hey All,

I really didn't intend to drop a bomb and leave....a few thoughts:

1)  The weather is indeed lousy.  My Scottish friends here in the states all say the same thing, but maybe their opinions are no good because they are deserters...  ;)
2)  I heard being discussed time and time again that if you mix in "secondary" courses you get a better deal.  Well not to state the obvious, but of course this is true.  If I wanted to play secondary courses, I would not go to Bandon and just stay at home.  The whole point of a "trip" is to see the epic stuff, and there are no secondary courses at the resort.
3)  I did mention in my original post, that everyone seems to have left out....  "select courses" like TOC when it comes to green fees.  I do get that most golf is not that pricey...but what golf lover is going to go all the way to Scotland...which may well be their only trip over there and risk not seeing TOC?  That's my whole beef with the gouging visitors scheme that has quite frankly never set well with me.

In light of all that, I should clarify that I'd like to move over there one day once the kiddies are all grown and spend 2-3 years working/ living there.  Then I'd have a lot more time to take small trips and see at least most of what I'd like to see.  But in the meantime, given financial, family, and work constraints....I have plenty of destinations to see here in the US that I'll likely never get to, without worrying about trying to do a rush job to the UK for a week or two where I know I'll wish I had lot more time.

P.S.  See now I could have also pointed out that the food was bad in the UK too, but I decided not to go there.   Besides, it would probably be a nice diet plan for me to "opt out" of eating something like haggis or boiled liver for lunch.  ;)

P.P.S.  Just because the UKs currency is also down, doesn't make the misery any less for the US having a crappy value as well....just sayin!!!

« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 10:21:09 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2012, 10:15:52 AM »
Don't knock the Haggis!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2012, 10:24:41 AM »
2)  I heard being discussed time and time again that if you mix in "secondary" courses you get a better deal.  Well not to state the obvious, but of course this is true.  If I wanted to play secondary courses, I would not go to Bandon and just stay at home.  The whole point of a "trip" is to see the epic stuff, and there are no secondary courses at the resort.

That's one of the things I was pointing out earlier. For my part, the idea of "epic" courses is not necessarily part of the criteria. I go over there (and would go to Bandon) primarily to play golf on firm, well-drained turf with cool-climate grasses not found in my part of the world. Any course that meets these five criteria

1) Firm
2) Drains well
3) Has cool-climate grasses that are not over-fertilized and over-watered and
4) Is at least somewhat well thought out from a routing and design perspective
5) I'm not the only soul on the course who want to walk instead of ride in a cart

is worth crossing an ocean or traveling to the remotest coast of the opposite corner of the continent from where I live. At least every year or two it's worth it. Epic scale or "Top 25 In The World" accolades add only an increment to my enjoyment.

That said, I can see where if "epic" is part of what makes a trip worthwhile you can really eliminate 90%+ of the very nice golf courses in the UK. You would indeed be down to your Turnberry, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Royal St. Georges class of very expensive, somewhat exclusive mostly household name places. Or go find a whole bunch of it in one place at Bandon.

On the other hand, stand on the first tee at Brora (generally considered a "secondary" type course) and your first glimpse of a good portion of the course hard by the North Sea seems pretty damn epic to me. So it's not entirely the preserve of the high-$$$ Open rota type clubs.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2012, 10:25:47 AM »
Hmmm I'm off for a three star luncheon tomorrow, I'll let you know how poor our food is.  :P

TOC can be experienced by everyone by booking in September when the booking period opens, there is also a daily ballot. Only the rich, lazy and/or unorganised need use TOC Experience. Muirfield is about the most expensive course at £250 for 36 holes or $375 still lots less than one round at Pebble Beach. Dornoch is world class and £160/$240 for 36 holes, no $100 caddy required, no $10pp tip for the starter, shoeshine, bar man and waitress.
Cave Nil Vino

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2012, 10:28:30 AM »
I read this subject, Bandon vs. the UK, and thought of this scene in A League of Their Own:

Boy to Dottie Hinson:  Why don’t we slip in the backseat, and you make a man outta me.
Dottie: Why don’t I just slap you around for a little while.
Boy:  Can’t we do both?

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2012, 11:14:19 AM »
"I heard being discussed time and time again that if you mix in "secondary" courses you get a better deal.  Well not to state the obvious, but of course this is true.  If I wanted to play secondary courses, I would not go to Bandon and just stay at home.  The whole point of a "trip" is to see the epic stuff, and there are no secondary courses at the resort."

Kalen - a good number of the "secondary" UK courses to which the guys are referring are better than half of the courses at Bandon. For example:  You can play a course like St Enodoc in HIGH season for just over $100 (or $150 for the entire day) and it is every bit as good as Bandon Dunes or Bandon Trails (better maybe?)... and, most people have never even heard of St Enodoc!

I could give you a list of 20 "secondary" courses that can hold their own with (or beat out) Dunes & Trails, but I'll leave that for later.

The volume of really good to great courses in the UK, especially England, is staggering. The only area of the US that can offer that level of quality & quantity is the Northeast. There are more great courses per square mile within a 100 mile radius of mid-town Manhattan than anywhere else on the planet.

I love Bandon, and if I lived in the western half of the US I would go there often... especially if I could catch some good weather and take advantage of their shoulder season rates.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Anthony Gray

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2012, 11:53:26 AM »

  Pacific Dunes has 3 nice secondary courses a well.

  Anthony


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2012, 11:54:24 AM »
Dunes yes, Trails no.  Trails is a solid Doak 8 in my book.  That ain't a secondary course in anybody's book and means there are only about 20 courses in the UK that are as good, and only a handful that are clearly superior...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2012, 11:56:35 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYyr_ZuNeo

The aerial video shows the city of Bandon which is 1.5 mile south of the resort..the new 27 holes by Gil Hanse wil be about another 6 miles south.

The city of Bandon was named in honor the of the hometown of Irishman Lord Bennett who brought gorse from Ireland to the south coast of Oregon.

The State of Oregon was founded in 1859.
It's all about the golf!

Anthony Gray

Re: Bandon vs. the UK
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2012, 12:05:56 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYyr_ZuNeo

The aerial video shows the city of Bandon which is 1.5 mile south of the resort..the new 27 holes by Gil Hanse wil be about another 6 miles south.

The city of Bandon was named in honor the of the hometown of Irishman Lord Bennett who brought gorse from Ireland to the south coast of Oregon.

The State of Oregon was founded in 1859.



  And the state bird of Oregon is the crab.