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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2012, 10:47:58 AM »
One of the best things you can do is to watch other people play.

I don't mean your normal golfing buddies -- their games are likely to be much like your own, and it's important to remember that what's good in golf architecture involves all golfers, not just you. 

I mean to just sit down and watch random groups of golfers play a hole for an hour or so.  I haven't done it often, but when I have, I've almost always learned something I didn't expect.  You begin to understand that the key to how courses work is not what happens when people hit the shots they're supposed to hit, but the recovery shots that are presented when people DON'T play the hole by the book.  Because most people never do play the hole like it's drawn up.

Caddying is another great way to learn the same things.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2012, 11:11:18 AM »
Mac, you have sure piled alot into a small time frame.  I think my brain would hurt ;D. I have found that, over the years, as one experiences new things, the vantage point of the past may shift.  I can recall looking at stuff many years ago and going back an seeing it in more recent times only to wonder about my original thinking.

I wouldn't try to make up for lost time by trying to cram it all in as fast as possible but rather, let it soak in over time.  And "once and done" isn't a good way to assess things.  You need to go back and reassess your orginal assessment.  Then see if your focus is still the same.

As for places to experience, it looks like a trip to the desert SW is in order.  The intersesting thing there is you can look at undeveloped land and extrapolate that to courses.

You may also wnat to try to invision just what did the architect have to work with.  Going back and looking at pre-development aerials if they are available is often rather eye-opening.

Finally, don't get stuck on Marquee architects and courses.  Just because someone else likes something, it doesn't mean it is your cup of tea.  If you see famous course "A", search out another course nearby to try to discern similarities and differences in the courses, afterall, they will probably have similar original points of departure in topo, vegitation, and soils.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2012, 11:33:21 AM »
I never thought a '47 Petrus could possibly be significantly better or dramatically different than an '83 Mouton......until I tasted it...

You had the wrong Mouton by a year....

Yes, by the book, but the fact that every clown wanted the '82 made the '83 one of the best bargains ever and a dramatically underrated and overlooked vintage IMO.  Kind of like some of our Hidden Gem courses...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2012, 12:21:56 PM »
One of the best things you can do is to watch other people play.

I don't mean your normal golfing buddies -- their games are likely to be much like your own, and it's important to remember that what's good in golf architecture involves all golfers, not just you.  .....
For 98% of my golfing life, I have never played with a set group.  What TD said here is one of the elements that maybe 8 years ago began to distinguish Riverfront form all the other courses i have ever played.

Another thought...
If you want to be a Physician, you have to take Organic Chemistry ... and in this field a foundation in Landscape Design.  (yipes controversial statement!!)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 12:49:01 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2012, 12:22:16 PM »
I mentioned I considered responding to each and every post, but decided that would be too long.  But with Tom Doak's post, I feel that posting my response to Ben Sims' post is fitting.  As Tom, Ben, and many others touched on the idea of watching others play.  



Ben…

I gotta tell you, I respect you a great deal.  I think you have true passion for golf course architecture and I respect the way you are going about pursuing your passion.  I wish you well as you turn your passion into your profession.

In regards to your post, you say:  “Sometimes it's about being on a golf course and not worrying about your own shot.”

I am with you.  I wish like hell I could caddy, but with my legs I simply can’t.  But I think I would be good at it and it would be awesome to watch others play a golf course (hopefully a good one…like say The Old Course) again and again.  That would be a dream come true.  (As a side note, many of your touch on this aspect one way or another…and I agree with those sentiments).  I will seek to observe others playing in some capacity, however, as I think it is a great idea.

Additionally, you say, “I think you also need to see a course getting built.  That helps a lot.”

Yep, agreed.  I hadn’t thought of that as a goal I need to pursue.  But I agree.  I will add it.  I saw some great things at Rivermont when Chris invited me out to watch holes 7, 8, and 9 be transformed.  And it is a kick to see Dismal II come around…but I only get out there to see its progression rather than being involved from hair brained idea to fully functioning golf course.  Again, great idea!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2012, 05:55:58 PM »
Mac - I think you've gotten a lot of excellent and practical guidance/advice; so that allows me to be a pain in the ass and reference an idea from my recent essay, i.e. change the character of the knower and you change to capacity to know/see.  As long as you are looking for objective 'facts', the all important subjective experience will seem somehow shallow and/or lacking.  I mentioned someone like Tom D earlier because I think that -- when you get right down to it -- he simply had the courage/independence of mind and just plain moxie to say "THIS is my subjective experience, and it is WORTH something".  In the world of creative writing, that's called writing with AUTHORITY.  No one and no thing can grant you that authority -- you have to assume it. IMHO.

Peter

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2012, 04:40:34 AM »
Peter,

Great post.  I thought of two things while reading it.

1.  I'll reiterate what Peter says about making it your own.  Write as though you have the authority to speak on your behalf.  Be succinct, and write as an expert.  You've earned it.

2.  An academic approach to golf architecture will only get you so far, and that's what Peter is driving at.

There are very few things in life I do not have to think about while enjoying them.  Basketball was the best.  By age 23 or 24, basketball became this amazing unthinking thing: pure thought, no worry.  I never felt better in life than when I was playing basketball, and I didn't have to think.  Except how to beat you.

I started studying golf hole diagrams when I was maybe 11, started playing when I was 21, started seeking out the greatest parks to play in when I was 23.  Not one of my biggest passions, but I've spent most of my life watching the ball fly and bounce.  I don't get totally lost in my golf thoughts.  It's a demanding game, but I try my best to notice everything that is happening.

Transcend conscious thought, but understand the physics of the game.  That's all there is.




John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2012, 04:59:47 AM »
Also, there is just as much to be learned from playing at the lesser park.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2012, 08:31:13 AM »
When I went to St Andrews in 2000, I spent my first afternoon there watching play at the road hole. I didn't see many pars and not a single birdie. I realize in observing play using an architectural focus, one probably should focus less on score and more an how the hole is played, but I came away thinking the hole was crazy hard, but couldn't wait to play it.
How many holes in the world are there where you can sit and watch golfing carnage and still consider the hole great?  This architecture stuff isn't easy to figure out.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2012, 09:39:46 AM »
Write as though you have the authority to speak on your behalf.  Be succinct, and write as an expert.  You've earned it.


"Threadkiller"   :D

I hear you and Peter on that, but I am of the mindset that understanding your surrondings when speaking makes all the difference.  There is no way in heck I am an authority on this site.  Urbina, Brauer, Young, Mahaffey, Klein, Doak (and many others) are.  In other circles, I am the expert...I get that.  

In all topics, including my business, I am of the mindset that once you think you know it all...you are about to learn a painful lesson.  Work hard, listen to all credible sources, vett information, make your own decisions based on good information.  

Look at this thread, I've already add a thing or two I need to add to my curriculum.

EDIT...and yes, I get that I am considered a bit "weird" or a "wacko" by some.  Keith still makes fun of me for rubbing the fairway grass on the first hole at Shinnecock.  Then following that up the next time I played with him at East Lake, by discussing the zyosia fairway grass with someone I was hosting...and, of course, rubbing that grass.   :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 09:42:09 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2012, 10:14:42 AM »
Write as though you have the authority to speak on your behalf.  Be succinct, and write as an expert.  You've earned it.


"Threadkiller"   :D

I hear you and Peter on that, but I am of the mindset that understanding your surrondings when speaking makes all the difference.  There is no way in heck I am an authority on this site.  Urbina, Brauer, Young, Mahaffey, Klein, Doak (and many others) are.  In other circles, I am the expert...I get that.  

In all topics, including my business, I am of the mindset that once you think you know it all...you are about to learn a painful lesson.  Work hard, listen to all credible sources, vett information, make your own decisions based on good information.  

Look at this thread, I've already add a thing or two I need to add to my curriculum.

EDIT...and yes, I get that I am considered a bit "weird" or a "wacko" by some.  Keith still makes fun of me for rubbing the fairway grass on the first hole at Shinnecock.  Then following that up the next time I played with him at East Lake, by discussing the zyosia fairway grass with someone I was hosting...and, of course, rubbing that grass.   :)

I watched the US Open at Olympic Club in 1987, and having played there, was amazed at the conditions for the championship.

That was one of the first times I rubbed the fairway grass while cruising through a fairway crosswalk...it was "tight" like the putting green at Lincoln Park! LOL

Since then have done the same while watching other tournaments/championships, eg. the Masters....

Agree with Pete that Tom Doak had/has the gumption to position his subjectiveness into his own sense of objectivity and absolutes (love the pic with the dog on the cover of the Confidential Guide).

But let's not over analyze as this is still all about the golf, I hope.

Love the your wackoness Mac!
It's all about the golf!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2012, 10:26:11 AM »
Also, there is just as much to be learned from playing at the lesser park.

+1
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 06:47:33 PM »
Mac, I haven't been posting but a couple of thoughts from my experience:

-  See average golf courses and learn from their flaws, particularly new golf developments.  Don't be afraid to be a critic;
-  Try to understand the different cultures of golf.  It's a different game all around the world which drives design philosophies.  Never underestimate the old scottish chap (or lass) who can only fly it 200 yards. Always try to read Melvyn & Sean Arble's posts.
-  play with golfers of different abilities, age and strength.
-  meet passionate people.  A couple of hours with some of the guys that post here is like reading weeks of threads. 

See you in a couple of weeks!

Michael

   
@Pure_Golf

Carson Pilcher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2012, 10:46:02 PM »
Read, watch, listen and ask questions after the first 3. Do not talk.

In other words..."He who speaks, does not know.  He who knows, does not speak" - Lao Tzu

Mac, do what you are doing.  Play golf with hickories.  See the game as a history.  Embrace that it used to take a "cut 3-iron" into the back pin location instead of a high 8-iron.

If you know the history, then you know where you are going.  Do not forge the modern-classic reads either.

P.s. you are light-years ahead by playing hickories!!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 11:14:13 PM »
Mac,
I think it would be good to take most of it with a grain of salt while realizing that most on this site "think" more into the architecture than the ODG's they are studying.  I've seen experts form here show me where DRoss placed a long lost bunker when all it really was was a depression from dynamiting a tree.  But if they write enough it will become history or fact when it was really neither.   I like the old stuff as much as anyone but it is often "over thunk" on this site...IMHO...just keep it simple... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 12:05:00 AM »
For me there are three components:

1.  Understanding golf courses from a playing perspective - what is good, what is bad and why?  To me this is both a subjective and an objective exercise.  I am never sure which predominates.

2.  Seeing golf courses, good, bad and indifferent.

3.  Learning about the technical aspects that are crucial but not as fun - safety, irrigation, drainage, construction techniques, maintenance practices, cart paths, environmental stewardship, etc.  My interest in these areas is pretty much limited to how they affect playability.  I am not sufficiently interested to learn how to actually build or maintain a golf course.  I just want to experience them. 

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 07:21:56 AM »
Mac,
I will start another thread on this, but do you have representative club golf over there, if so, pulling a young/middle/old players clubs around on a trolley for him/her, assisting in their mental and physical shot making and decisions. A good situation to observe.
@theflatsticker

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2012, 08:50:34 AM »
Again, thanks guys...great stuff.

Carson...on the hickories... 

I had heard everyone talk about how technology changed the game.  The 460cc drivers, the ProV1's, are ruining the the old classic gems of golf courses.  So, I figured I'd see for myself.  I got some hickory clubs, gutta percha replicas, and had add it.  I've also got persimmons, balatas, and a different era of hickories, and era specific replica balls as well. 

Bottom line...Yep!  It has changed the game.  Although the principles are the same...get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible...the tactics for achieving that goal are quite different.  And this has, without question, had a great impact on golf course architecture.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Anthony Gray

Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2012, 09:26:58 AM »


  I think reading all of Clayman's posts will help your learning Mac. There is a bunker at PB with steps.

  Anthony


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2012, 04:41:54 PM »
Mac, keep playing the greats, like reading the great books no reason to do much else. Read all the old interviews on the web site, many of the early ones are gems. Read many of Ran's Courses by Country, he has one of the best eyes in the world for GCA. For years I tried to read almost everything that Doak posted....

Brad...I'm taking you up on this and reading (and re-reading) many of these older interviews.  I agree with your gems statement!  Here is a few nuggets...



Tom Doak 1999
 Is there a feature from the Golden Age of architecture that you think is missing from course design today?
What’s missing most from modern golf course design is unpredictability. In the old days, when you had a severe feature within the property, how it was used determined the character of the design. Nowadays, most architects either erase it with a bulldozer, or route the cart paths around it.



Brad Klein 1999
Is there a feature from the Golden Age of architecture that you think is missing from course design today?
1. Good routings
2. Ability to play a golf course with one ball
3. Workable green contours
4. Attention paid to the 50 yards short of a green
5. Bunker contours and shape



Geoff Shackelford 1999
 Is there a feature from the Golden Age of golf architecture that you think is missing from course design today?
G.S.: No one feature. Just basically all of the key features from the Golden Age. Subtlety, mystery, natural looking beauty created by man, variety, irregularity, forced carries, decision-making, encouraging recovery play, skillful incorporation of drainage, intelligently-contoured greens, plenty of short holes, prudent routings, etc…

Bill Coore 1999  Talks about their process for building a course.

Our working relationship at The Sand Hills was basically the same as for all of our courses. We work together in evaluating the site and agreeing upon a routing. Obviously, because of time constraints and Ben’s other commitments, I have more time to spend on the site. For that reason, it is generally my role to select individual golf holes that could be a part of any potential routing. Together, we assess these and any other potential holes and select the ones that will become the course.

After the routing is selected, we establish a general concept for the strategy and style of the individual holes and the course as a whole. This concept will include our thoughts regarding the holes’ strategy, the style of bunkering and the contouring of green sites and approaches. As much as the requirements for the permitting of the course will allow, we try to leave the details on contouring free to happen during the evolutionary process in the field.

From the start of construction on, ours is the job of establishing a starting point and giving guidance in the field. At times this guidance is specific, while at others it is minimal. We find ourselves editing the work of our associates in the field ever as much as directing it.

Gil Hanse 2000
1. Is there a particular feature that is generally considered antiquated (cross bunkers, punchbowl greens, etc.) you think is missing from course design today?
While the two you have mentioned certainly merit more use, I have become fascinated with an antiquated feature that hardly ever receives attention. It may not even be considered a feature in most people’s minds, but I think it warrants attention. I truly love when architects use natural landforms as a hazard on a hole. By this I mean the use of a ridge, hollow, swale, or crease in the ground to promote strategy. Very often it is an improved line of sight that is the reward. If a player can avoid the landform, then he is often rewarded with a clear line of sight to the hole, or a more fruitful angle from which to attack the green site. If the player happens to roll into the hollow, or winds up behind the ridge, then they have a shot that is more difficult on the psyche, while not being technically much more difficult than a shot played from the same distance with a clear sight line. If these features can be highlighted by incorporating them in the fairway (so that the hopefully firm and fast conditions) will exaggerate the plight of the ball, they can be a very dramatic feature.

I find this subtle form of hazard, as opposed to a pond, stream, or even a bunker, can provide for a great deal of interest and variety in a round of golf. If you take it back far enough, it is an extension of the true nature of links golf, where the uneven nature of the lie, stance, and sight (or lack thereof) are truly dependent on the vagaries of the natural landscape. In this day and age, there are not many architects who would contemplate creating a situation where someone’s vision might be partially obscured on a hole (how could it be the signature hole if you cannot see it). I think that the use of natural landforms to subtly penalize a golfer is a great throw back to lay of the land architecture. A few examples that pop into mind are the fairway contours on the 16th Hole at The National, 13th Hole at Pine Valley (left side), several of the holes on the Back Nine at High Pointe, 7th Hole at East Hampton GC, 12th Hole at Inniscrone, and I can imagine with some thought we could all come up with a much more thorough list.

I also feel that these types of hazards can be used to varying degrees in keeping with the wayward nature of the shot. A player who has nearly pulled off a good shot could perhaps just not see the putting surface, a bit further away, and only the flag is visible, way off line and the shot is blind into the green. The same can be used if length instead of line is the factor on the hole, from nearly long enough to short, with the commensurate penalty for each shot. The final comment on the use of this feature is that Mother Nature provides these types of landforms in an infinite array of sizes, shapes, and character. Creating a situation where they can be used with imagination, and in a fresh way on any site that possesses them. Hopefully, architects that can use them in resourceful ways will be blessed with those sites.



Ron Whitten 2000...
5. How do you think the period in course architecture (1985-1999) will be viewed in fifty years time?
The era of extreme excess, both in money charged, money spent and earth moved. One good recession will bankrupt most of what’s been built in this era, and one good drought will bankrupt the rest.


Mind blowingly good stuff!!!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2012, 05:23:44 PM »
You could do a lot worse than simply listening to Don Mahaffey. I don't know anyone on here who gets all aspects as well.

From my own experiences, I feel I learned more by watching the US Am every day at Oakmont for a week than I could have learned playing the course a thousand times. It was fun listening to JohnV's friends afterward as well.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2012, 07:29:42 PM »
Mac: Answer 16, David Eger Aug 1999. The strongest insights reveal themselves only to the worthy.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »
Mac - As one of the few 25 year olds in the world who is inching his way closer and closer to his gca dreams and goals here are the 3 most important pieces in my golf course education as someone who builds golf courses, and wants to continue to get better at it.

1. See and Play lots of golf courses: They dont all have to be top-25 or top-100 courses, but you should at least see a few of these. You should also see at least a few courses which you walk off #18 hating it. There should be a few of these courses (preferably on the better end) which you have played more times than you can remember where you can recount all the tiny nooks and cranies, and can read the greens by memory... By doing this you will develop a feeling for what you kinds of things you like and what you would never want on a course of your own. You will start to analyze what you are willing to go out of the way to see, and why.

2. Caddy: As others have said, watch others play is a good way to understand, but being on the bag is the only way to truly understand a players thought process. You will see the greatest variety of players this way. You will understand that there are a million ways to make the same score, that golf excites people in different ways, that people get different things out of the game. You will see how the course plays to certain types of thinking, how it really could be made more fun for all types of people and certainly find yourself in places where you wouldn't by chasing your own ball around all the time. You will never learn as much from watching people play as you will from being on the bag, and trust me, its fun.

3. Work on a Construction Crew: There is absolutely no better way to understand what a golf course really is until you grab a shovel and a rake, peel apart the layers. Any architect or super will tell you the 3 most important things to a golf course are Drainage, Drainage, Drainage, so until you have literally stood in a trench with your boots and shovel leveling out the bottom of the trench finding a way to get the water to flow downhill, you will never really understand what goes into a golf course. You don't need to be an monster on the equipment and an expert shaper to understand architecture, you need to understand the layers of gravel, stone, fill, top-soil, mix and how they compact bellow all the green stuff to truly understand what a golf course is.

Golf courses are living, breathing, evolving things, by all means supplement all of this by reading every book on the subject you can find (I sure have) but look at the people who get hired by the best architects out there... Until you have been in the bottom of the muddy trench, your education will never be complete.... not that it ever will!!!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2012, 09:37:24 PM »
Jaeger...

I sent you a PM thanking you for this post.  Since that day, I've thought about this post quite a bit.  I believe that post encompasses everything I am after and need in my quest.  I can not thank you enough, but regardless...thanks!!!

Mac
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Practices for Learning about Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2012, 10:30:48 AM »
Stop what you are doing,  learn CADD, take an internship in a golf architecture firm, start clearing briars at Contentment, rally the resources to build a great practice facility with us.

Lester