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ed getka

Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« on: December 08, 2001, 08:11:34 PM »
I am curious what you guys think about architecture dictating shot placement vs. shot shaping.

Should a hole always have a place in the fairway that provides a straightforward approach? Or should the positioning of the green dictating a certain shaped shot regardless of where you are in the fairway also be considered a good design? As usual I'm not be very clear, but I'm trying to learn from you guys, so bear with me. I'm bound to get better at this eventually! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2001, 08:22:15 PM »
For a good player today, shots are not shaped.  Because of hollow-headed drivers and perimeter weighted irons, you can't find college or professional tournament players that are shaping much.  Some people have a tendency to fade or draw, but it isn't much.  (Tom Lehman's fabled "right-to-left" action is all of a couple yards.)

In fact, harder ball covers and modern clubs have made it pretty hard to "move" the ball at will.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2001, 08:24:39 PM »
Ed,

I've always felt that testing "shot shaping" should be an important element in golf architecture, especially for courses designed to challenge the finest players.

I'd really like to see more par 4s with alternate shot shaping requirements (e.g., right to left off the tee and left to right into the green).  Here again, one can't help think about the insidious impact of equipment technology (i.e., there is not much shot making required when you are just dropping short irons into greens).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2001, 08:11:18 AM »
Ed,

I think that ball movement has been diminished over the last 20 years.

As to architects telling you where to place the ball, I thought that might be a function of their placement of bunkers, hazards or other features, done on every hole.

I think the architect forges a general tactical plan for every level of golfer on every hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

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A very interesting topic
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2001, 09:00:33 AM »
Ed,

Olympic GC in San Francisco is very good at asking players like Lee Janzen to shape a fade on doglegs like the 5th and 10th. Conversely, the course is also excellent at asked them to shape draws to hold the pronounced left to right slopes of such fairways as 4 and 17 or to shape draws on such other holes as 14 and 16 whose fairways keep swinging to the left.

I have come to think of this requirement of Olympic GC as perhaps its most distinguishing design feature - and I think that is why so many shot makers like Janzen and Johnny Miller love the course.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2001, 11:26:55 AM »
This may be a little off-topic but the term "shot-shaping" can be one of the misused phrases in golf.  It seems to me to be the biggest hindrance to restoring the classic courses to play the way they were intended. Specifically TREES.  Every tree that encroaches on play at my classic era course is thought to be good because it forces the player to "shape" a shot.  "Why make the course easier ?"  It is a losing battle,  because of tree limb encroachment one would be nuts to play anywhere near the two most severe bunker complexes on the course. Most recognize the necessity of shaping a shot around a tree but very rarely on most other places on the course. I suppose I want my "shot-shaping" determined by Rees Jones, or CB macdonald not Mrs. Miller on the course beautiful committee.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2001, 11:45:35 AM »
I'm suppose players don't work the ball like they did in the past, but to say players no longer work the ball is inaccurate. Each year I go to the Tucson Open I watch player fade their drive on the dogleg right par 5 8th, and I watch them draw it on the dogleg left par 5 10th. If they are not working the ball, what do you call it? (when Tiger or Sergio hits that low stinger, aren't they shaping their ball?)

I like courses that require shot shaping. I have no problem with reachable par 5's that require the longer player to shape his ball off the tee. I'd like to see more tilted fairways instead of a slew of 450+ par 4's.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Greg Stebbins

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2001, 11:55:51 AM »
I think players today have a better understanding of their limitations and are therefore less likely to play shots that they are less comfortable with.  An example of this is a pin tucked behind a bunker on the right side of the green.  The person who fades will take the risk but the person who prefers a draw will play towards the middle and wait for a better opportunity to be aggressive.

I do agree with Corey that most "shaped" shots are because of the overgrowth of trees.  Especially here in the Metro NY area, one simply cannot expect to compete at times without the ability to hook or fade the ball around a tree a couple times during a round.

I feel that the only times where the ability to shape shot plays a major advantage is when there is wind and/or firm conditions.  The ability to "work" the ball can effectively double the size of fairways and greens at times for players in these cases.  

In conclusion, lets cut down the trees so the wind can blow and stop overwatering golf courses so that the importance shot making can be brought back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2001, 12:33:08 PM »
Great Topic.

I respectfully disagree with my good friend John Conley and would suggest that the lack of shot shaping is a much as anything due to the maintenance practices used on today's golf courses.  I would agree that the new equipment allows for a straighter shot than in times past, but do not think that the equipment precludes the use of proper shots to various designs.  

The maintenance of our courses has placed less importance on the shaped shot.  A soft approach and putting surface simply promotes a high shot to the green.  Why bend the ball to the flag when yuo can simply take your wedge out and blast it at the pin, knowing that the ball will stick where it lands?  

Another issue is the design of the holes.  More concerned about revenue than interest, developers ask that holes be designed with speed of play and ease of maintenece in mind.  You wouldn't want to clutter the approach with any feature that might cost $ to maintain or slow players on their way to the nineteenth hole.  

All of these restrictions have made players lazy.  The players who win the US Open or the Open Championship are still shaping shots to more difficult targets.  The perfect example would be Tiger at Troon a few years back, he simply didn't have the shots to win.  He went back to the drawing board and patched that weakness in his game.  Resulting in his British Open win.

Firm up the greens, place hazards on the line of play and both shot placement and shot shaping will win you some Saturday morning $$s from the boys at the club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2001, 07:22:34 PM »
It would seem good design would allow for the better stategy for a hole is when you can shape you shots to create an optimum position while generally providing a straightforward way to play the hole too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2001, 09:55:23 PM »
Glad to hear that I've got guys disagreeing with me.  However, I will say that when I caddied as a teen many people worked the ball - and some were downright hookers.  Almost nobody hooks it, and a slight draw is about what the Tour players can muster with a drive if they want.  (I'll give it to Don that some move the ball if the hole really calls for it, but when I watch Tour guys they hit it real straight at Bay Hill and Disney.)

Billy Casper hit rope hooks at Hazeltine for the Senior Open in the 80s.  Others were known as faders, like Mark McCumber.  But the ball DOES NOT move like it did... a number of reasons.  My friend Sam is playing with a Dynamic shafted Citation driver.  I hadn't seen ball flights like that for a decade!  Bad players can still slice, but the ball moves a lot less than it did.  

I think it was Nolan Henke that said announcers were full of crap when they talked about guys playing to the center of a green and working it over toward the flag - and that was a decade ago.  Stand 150 from the hole with a Tour player and you'll see them play THEIR SHOT over and over at the flag, no matter where it is on the green.

Take a Ping O-Blade or Callaway iron and try to work it like you did with a Staff or Hogan from the 70s.  You have to swing so pronounced to work it that you can't make good swings.  Isn't that why Payne Stewart struggled with his Spalding irons in the early-90s?  He was used to moving it a little each way when the shot called for it and he couldn't get the clubs to do what he thought they should.  And I heard that from one of his instructors!

Players of today have found the solution.  Bomb it off every tee and fire at every flag.  I agree that holes that call for shot shaping are nice, but courses today are actually playing into the bombers hands by being long and wide.

A Redan is an optimal hole from a strategy standpoint because of its call for a shape or placed shot.  Take your pick, but you need to pull it off.

Firm greens to take away the aerial assault would help to get to Ed's point, but that is unfortunately not the direction maintenance practices are headed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2001, 08:49:57 AM »
I notice in Ed's initial post he asks what we think of an architect 'dictating' shot placement vs shot shaping in his design.

I think there is probably room for an architect to "dictate" strategy or apparent strategy occasionally but personally I don't think it should be a general architectural rule or principle, only one possibly offered very occasionally and only for the purpose of variety.

The word or thought of strategic "dictation" makes me nervous. I think there is a lot to be learned by really studying the thoughts and words of those such as Hunter and Behr! When it comes to their ideas on the subject of "strategy" they talk about an architect identifying or creating something that presents the golfer with a sense of "freedom".

I'm most definitely assuming both meant by "freedom" a golfer's sense and interest in some strategy discovered, initiated and accomplished by himself--not something simply one dimensionally presented to him and clearly presented by the architect himself for the golfer to have to notice, adhere to and accomplish (or not).

Max Behr says a few things that are extremely interesting food for thought on this subject;

"But if we look closely, we shall discover that the changes [the architect's work(?)--TEPaul] rarely involve natural hazards. Indeed, the veriest tyro is unconciously aware that golf is a contest with Nature. Thus where he meets her unadorned, unblemished by the hand of man, he meets her without criticism."

Behr says in another article:

"Instead of nature dominating golf, it is now dominated by the mechanical devices of man. This is the unhealthy state to which golf has arrived, and the psychological tendency is to make further inroads upon nature's side of the balance, for once the human mind succeeds in overcoming natural hazards in life it never remains satisfied until it has devised means to do away with them altogether."

Hunter's and particular Behr's thoughts were arrived at and written the the 1920s! But doesn't what they said (and warned against) have an odd and close truth to the evolution of golf architecture since they thought and wrote those things on this subject? They certainly do to me!

Particularly Behr's ideas on the subject seem subliminal, theoretical, maybe almost psychological. How do you suppose he meant for an architect to actually design and carry out what he meant to say? I'm only sure of a couple of things in that context.

The first is that he meant for an architect to use anything natural that was useful for golf and what he could not find that way but still needed should be done in such a way as to hide his creative hand!

And second, and probably more practical, I believe his idea and concept of "line(s) of charm" was one of the specific ways, and one of the best ways, to do it. Essentially, I believe, the really well done concept of "line of charm" allows any golfer to identify and accomplish his own strategy and his own "freedom". Simply setting tee boxes for the spectrum of golfing levels to do the same things and then asking every golfer to identify and adhere to the architect's very creation of those things for the prescribed strategy, and maybe the only reasonable strategy, is not half so interesting or rewarding!

Or at least I think that's exactly what Hunter and Behr meant to say--and those two old guys really fascinate me!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2001, 09:50:25 AM »
TEPaul,
Is this what you mean? That the "line of charm" is the one that golfer's should match to their abilities and, if the line is found, then having this knowledge enables them with the "freedom" to play the hole since they can see a way to successfully do it? Shouldn't we all play that way?
Shouldn't more courses be built with this in mind?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2001, 10:24:14 AM »
JimK:

You got it, but Behr's "line of charm" concept can be as much designed as found. It's really no different than much of what TOC is with some kind of golf feature (bunkers, whins, mounds, whatever) all over the place and very much in the center and middle of things. So obviously there's no one way, there are lots of ways and different ways for everyone to choose his own way for himself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed getka

Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2001, 03:55:04 PM »
John,
 I use Staff blades and assure you I can move the ball more than a few yards (sometimes when I don't even intend to :)).

Ran,
Excellent point about Olympic and the tilted fairways. I hit a number of fairways off the tee but they ended up in the bordering rough after the slope took over. Especially on #5 I ripped a perfect fade and didn't even bother watching it land as it was carving dead center. Once I got down there I was astounded to find my ball in the left rough. My respect for the golf played there during the Open increased substantially after finding how much the tilted fairways affect play on some holes.

Don,
I think you are right that instead of just lengthening holes, some fairway tilt would be more of a test for good players.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

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Re: Strategic shot placement vs. shot shaping
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2001, 10:43:51 PM »
My home course, Commonwealth, has an interesting short/medium par 4, as #4


The fairway slopes from right to left, and the green slopes severely from left to right, meaning that the ideal drive will be a fade, and the approach must be a draw, otherwise there is no hope of holding the putting surface.

Although it might be possible to play a successful approach without shaping the ball, you only have around 6 feet of green as a landing area if you wish to get close to the pin.  Next to that landing area is a deep bunker which gives you very little chance of an up+down.  By shaping your shot, there is more margin for error
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »