Case Study Spinoff

[Greg Tallman]

Reading through the Dismal River topic got me thinking.

Jack was responsive to requests by ownership to make some changes to the course...

Are there designers who would refuse such input/intrusion and tell the owner no?

[Terry Lavin]

Greg,

If you want this thread to go anywhere, you'd better put the word "Dismal" in the title...

[Kalen Braley]

Greg,

If you want this thread to go anywhere, you'd better put the word "Dismal" in the title...

Terry it sucked me in.....Case Study is now code-word for Dismal.   

As it relates to this question though....I can recall a few of the architects in this forum who have said they usually tried to figure that stuff out before they took the job, in terms of how easy or reasonable a potential owner would be.... before signing on the dotted line and avoiding those kind of situations altogether.

Granted, you can almost throw that process out the window in the post 2008 world...but it would be interesting to hear of any examples where an architect has turned down work in the last 2-3 years.

[Tom_Doak]

Reading through the Dismal River topic got me thinking.

Jack was responsive to requests by ownership to make some changes to the course...

Are there designers who would refuse such input/intrusion and tell the owner no?

Greg:

My first visit to Dismal was the fall after the course opened, a quick stopover after looking at a site for a potential client nearby. The new managing partner [Mr. Tanner?] just happened to be there when I came in, and was nice enough to loan me his clubs while we went out and took a quick tour.

My understanding of it at the time [not from Chris, who wasn't involved then] was that Mr. Nicklaus was the impetus to make the changes, as much as the ownership.  I believe Jack thought it was too severe, after playing it in the opening.  Of course, it's possible Mr. Tanner just wanted me not to think that he had interfered with the architect.

[Michael George]

Tom:

If given the opportunity and the time and money, is there a course that you have designed that you would not make some change to?  I know you probably cannot give specifics, but I would think that there are things with every course that you would like to now tinker with like raising or lowering tees, adding/removing/changing bunkers....

Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

If given the opportunity and the time and money, is there a course that you have designed that you would not make some change to?  I know you probably cannot give specifics, but I would think that there are things with every course that you would like to now tinker with like raising or lowering tees, adding/removing/changing bunkers....

Thanks.

Michael:

I am not a tinkerer by nature, and I try really hard to do most of my tinkering BEFORE we plant the grass, rather than after.

That's not to say that all of my courses are perfect.  There are some things I would change, on a few of them.  It's more to say that I don't believe there IS such a thing as perfection in golf course architecture, so I don't waste a lot of money trying to perfect things after the fact if they are already working reasonably well.

[jeffwarne]

Greg,

If you want this thread to go anywhere, you'd better put the word "Dismal" in the title...

or Gil

How about "Dismal Gilmore"

[Adam Clayman]

There's also the story of Tom Watson, having dinner with Jack at the Memorial, detailing all that was wrong with DR. But Kavanaugh is likely correct, there weren't any changes made on the ground, only in the perception. 

I've also heard stories where if Jack didn't think changes needed to made, after coming back to a course at the owners/memberships request, he would point to a cloud in the sky and say something like "Let's move this tee box there". 

[Michael Whitaker]

Greg,

After initially agreeing to help with revisions at True Blue, Mike Strantz pulled out of the job before the work began stating that he didn't want to participate in changing his course.

[Anthony Gray]

  Did Ross tinker with Pinehurst when he live there? Or CBM with NGLA?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

There's also the story of Tom Watson, having dinner with Jack at the Memorial, detailing all that was wrong with DR. But Kavanaugh is likely correct, there weren't any changes made on the ground, only in the perception. 

I've also heard stories where if Jack didn't think changes needed to made, after coming back to a course at the owners/memberships request, he would point to a cloud in the sky and say something like "Let's move this tee box there". 

  Where do you hear these things?

 

[Tom_Doak]

  Did Ross tinker with Pinehurst when he live there? Or CBM with NGLA?

  Anthony

Anthony:

There is quite a difference between Macdonald tinkering with NGLA [because he wanted to] and having a client suggest things you should do.  But, even at National, there was some falling out with the membership over some of the changes Macdonald made, which they did not like.  I can't remember the exact history of it [you should ask George Bahto] but if I remember right, they changed some things on the course as soon as Macdonald passed away.

[Adam Clayman]

Anthony, I heard the watson story from at least two sources.One was the former GM at Dismal River.

The Cloud story was about his Santa Fe designs, and came from a member.

[Chris Johnston]

Adam is corect - I can confirm the Tom Watson story but don't know where it ocurred.  I don't anaything about clouds tho.

Watson came out to look at the land, played and shot 70, but found the greens too extreme for the speeds for a wide range of players.  Tom also believed the shots required didn't consider enough wind, which we get alot out here.  Jack came out and decided to make the changes we have discussed.  I don't know if 13 was part of the discussion but it was changed around the same time period.  13 was a do or die shot with no area provided to bail out - with irrigated rough, it was penal.

Jack has always been receptive to discuss ideas and changes with me.

Adam, thanks for the memories.