[Mark Saltzman]

You mention small piece of property at OLCC, any estimation on the approximate acreage?

130 acres

Is the 130 acres a guess or do you know that?  That does seem small, though the routing does not feel forced. Then again Hugh Wilson had less than that at Merion (East) with 126 and Donald Ross had between 100 and 105 at Wannamoisett. Those 2 are obviously great courses, but Alison did a nice job with Orchard Lake.

Measured it with planometer, got 130.5. Should be about right, give or take a couple acres depending where you mark the boundary of the course.

[Niall Hay]

Wow, that sounds pretty official then. Nice!

[Niall Hay]

What is the optimal size parcel of land required for a “full” 18 hole course? Strictly size.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 3, 238 Yards

Very good long and difficult par-3.  A deep bunker on the left and a contoured fairway on the right beg for a running draw.  I can't help but feel the bunker is again too small in scale.








Hidden from the tee is a collection area right of the green to catch those that bail-out from the bunker left... [but how cool would this hole be if all of this area over the green was fairway cut?]




The worst miss of all, however, is long...




Hole 8: Par 4, 414 Yards

The 8th, routed over some wildly rolling terrain, is one of my favourite holes on the golf course.









The fairway is very wide and welcoming for those willing to lay-up short of the single fairway bunker 240 yards from the tee.




Fairway contours will serve to collect balls from the edges of the fairway toward its centre.  But, shots that miss the fairway left will kick farther left and risk finding hazard/overhanging tree limbs.







The green, much like the green at the 4th is highest in the centre, falling off on all sides.











Hole 9: Par 5, 480 Yards

A bunker on the inside of the dogleg has long been replaced by mounding and overhanging limbs.  Longer hitters will try to cut the corner, leaving a short approach to this par-5.  Those wishing to lay-up are best served by playing as far left as possible.




Decision-making on the second shot revolves around the cleverly placed bunker  50 yards short of the green. 




Pitch shots from the left are just fine, playing up the throat of this back-to-front sloping green.




Plenty of fairway cut over the fairway bunker on the right, this was not obvious from the fairway




Green as seen from back-right

[Bill Hyde]

Hopefully these pics make the case for my belief this hole needs to be altered. It would be a great par 4 if the trees were removed on the right side (and the cart path, no doubt there due to the low lying land on this and #1 fairway.) Bunkers on the inside that tempted the better angle and plenty of room left to play it safe. This is like the 17th we removed at our place...a bad par 5 in its current form and a bad par 4 in its current form. Other than this hole, I love OLCC!!

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 10: Par 4, 389 Yards

Like the tee shot at the 2nd, the tee shot on the 10th is semi-blind with the fairway completely hidden from view.  A series of bunkers down the left side of the fairway (protecting the ideal tee shot) have been removed -- likely because people were becoming frustrated by driving into bunkers that could not be seen from the fairway.




Another great, rolling fairway.




From the DZ, much of the green is hidden from view by a raised portion of the fairway.




Shots landing short of the green must negotiate this steep kicker.  Anything just a bit right will kick down into rough/bunker.  Bunker is again very small in scale.




A front-to-back sloping at-grade green. 




A chipping area behind the green will see a lot of play as many shots will run through this green.








Hole 11: Par 4, 451 Yards

This is a very long and difficult par-4.  The tee shot is played into an upslope in the fairway, minimizing roll.




After a 230 yard drive (and no roll), just the tip of the flag can be seen from the fairway.




Longer hitters that are able to crest the hill 270 yards from the tee will have their ball trundle down the hill, leaving just a short-iron approach.




The scale of this bunker feels about right, but somehow it seems like it was once placed nearer the green.








Hole 12: Par 5, 570 Yards

Ideal line is down the left.  There is a deep depression short of the fairway that is flattened by the camera.




There is some serious reverse-camber here.  One must play down the left of the dogleg left to keep the ball in the fairway.  Fortunately, there is plenty of corridor width.






The approach is played to a 'winged' green, which is a significant change from the original green (or at least the 1964 green).  This green has much more of an RTJ feel (or at least 1970s feel) to me and I wonder what architect made the change.

[Niall Hay]

Hopefully these pics make the case for my belief this hole needs to be altered. It would be a great par 4 if the trees were removed on the right side (and the cart path, no doubt there due to the low lying land on this and #1 fairway.) Bunkers on the inside that tempted the better angle and plenty of room left to play it safe. This is like the 17th we removed at our place...a bad par 5 in its current form and a bad par 4 in its current form. Other than this hole, I love OLCC!!

Couldn't you just extend the tee back and left and keep as a Par 5?

[Niall Hay]

Great pictures Mark. Please keep them coming. 

Par 3's so have have looked great.  As does # 8. 

Which holes do you rate the best?

[Mark Saltzman]

Hopefully these pics make the case for my belief this hole needs to be altered. It would be a great par 4 if the trees were removed on the right side (and the cart path, no doubt there due to the low lying land on this and #1 fairway.) Bunkers on the inside that tempted the better angle and plenty of room left to play it safe. This is like the 17th we removed at our place...a bad par 5 in its current form and a bad par 4 in its current form. Other than this hole, I love OLCC!!

Couldn't you just extend the tee back and left and keep as a Par 5?

We're talking about 9, right?

Who needs to move the tee at all?  It plays just under 500 yards, and it's uphill.  Hardly a gimme for all but the longest hitters.

The bunkering short of the green is very clever and perfectly suited for a short par-5.  Golfers going for the green in two but finding the bunker 30 yards short will do well to make 5.

Clean up the overhanging limbs and I think the hole is just fine as is.

[Mark Saltzman]

Great pictures Mark. Please keep them coming. 

Par 3's so have have looked great.  As does # 8. 

Which holes do you rate the best?

I think OLCC is a course full of really good holes.

There has been some discussion on this site about the difficulty in maintaining interest on the second shot on par-5s, especially if one is laying-up.  The bunkering on the short of the green on the par-5s is very clever, making the 5s a real strength of the course.  The 2nd is easily my favourite of the bunch -- the combination of the rolling terrain, quirky blind tee-shot, fairway undulation and bunker placement in landing area, and great green.

The par-3s, similarly are very good, though not of the same quality as the 5s.  13 is easily my favourite, with the green perched over a massive, natural drop-off.  Looking at the aerials, it looks like 13 used to be fairway cut all the way to the bottom of the hill. Can you imagine that? That would be one of the scariest holes I've ever seen.

[Niall Hay]

"The approach is played to a 'winged' green, which is a significant change from the original green (or at least the 1964 green).  This green has much more of an RTJ feel (or at least 1970s feel) to me and I wonder what architect made the change."

Art Hills?

[Frank Pont]

I really like the potential of what I have seen of this Colt/Alsion course. Great use of the landforms, interesting holes.

However what for me as a European, used to European and GBI Colt courses, is shocking is to see how far the course has digressed from what its original design intentions were:

- Much narrower fairways than originally intended
- Massive tree overplanting, especuially in the doglegs, often destroying the original strategy of the holes
- It looks like a number of fairway bunkers in the doglegs have been replaced by trees
- The course has completely lost the Colt's sand faced bunker style
- All fairway bunkers lie in the rough with a rough collar between the fairway and the green (shows how much the fairways have been narrowed)
- Non continious fairways (areas of forced carry semi-rough areas), something Colt never used
- A total lack of short grass areas around the greens, especially in the grassy hollows
- Very narrow cut entrances to the green, almost eliminating the bump and run possibilities.

Is this the typical state of Colt/Alsion courses in North America?

[Jeff_Mingay]

In a nutshell, Frank... yes

I, too, am really impressed with the 'bones' there, at Orchard Lake. Very nice. I live minutes from this course and have never visited, for whatever reasons. Perhaps that's been a mistake. Interesting...

[Frank Pont]

In a nutshell, Frank... yes

Amazing.... you would expect the custodians of such important historic courses to be have done their homework and at least have visited a number of key reference courses of Colt & Co to understand his principles... I guess not.

In any case, means lots of important work needs to be done!

[Jeff_Mingay]

(We've talked about this, but...) Frank,

Too large of a majority of 'classic' courses in North America can today be summarized as you've done with Orchard Lake, exactly... whether designed by Colt & Alison, Donald Ross, A.W. Tillinghast or Stanley Thompson, et al. That's the deal here; but, I'm certain it's not much different in Europe, where you're at work reversing similiar affects of time (and ill-advised design changes).

As you know, there's always work to do... it's just a matter of getting clubs 'tuned in' and willing to spend on the right things.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 13: Par 3, 199 Yards

Absolutely exceptional par-3 that embracing the terrain.  The 1964 aerial shows that this hole was fairway cut all the way to the bottom of the valley -- AMAZING!

From the back tee, the danger to the right is not obvious.




But as the golfer takes a few steps forward...






As seen from the 11th tee (hmmm, previewing the shot, perhaps? http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29282.0.html)




View from the valley; certainly can't see the flag from here.




Those that find the green should have a fairly simple putt on this flattish putting surface.




From behind.





Hole 14: Par 5, 518 Yards

A deceptive tee shot on this short par-5 and one that I would need to play at least once more to determine if I like.  There is more fairway than is obvious to left, though a significant fairway tilt requires a tee shot skirting the fairway bunker.  Tee shots that carry the bunker will find rough... odd design, though perhaps it is just poor mowing lines.




Lots of right-to-left tilt to the fairway...




Poor attempt to show the lack of fairway / mowing lines over the bunker.




Laying up to the 150 mark leaves a slightly downhill approach from a flat lie...




While approaches from between 100 and 150 yards must deal with a fairway that heaves left and then right.  Getting past the 100 marker again finds level terrain.











Hole 15: Par 4, 450 Yards

A difficult, but not overly interesting par-4.  I cannot help but think the fairway, at one time, extended closer to the boundary on the right, to allow the brave golfer a clearer line into the green.






Though it is not clear from the pictures, this is one of the more difficult greens on the golf course. 

[Niall Hay]

I really like the potential of what I have seen of this Colt/Alsion course. Great use of the landforms, interesting holes.

However what for me as a European, used to European and GBI Colt courses, is shocking is to see how far the course has digressed from what its original design intentions were:

- Much narrower fairways than originally intended
- Massive tree overplanting, especuially in the doglegs, often destroying the original strategy of the holes
- It looks like a number of fairway bunkers in the doglegs have been replaced by trees
- The course has completely lost the Colt's sand faced bunker style
- All fairway bunkers lie in the rough with a rough collar between the fairway and the green (shows how much the fairways have been narrowed)
- Non continious fairways (areas of forced carry semi-rough areas), something Colt never used
- A total lack of short grass areas around the greens, especially in the grassy hollows
- Very narrow cut entrances to the green, almost eliminating the bump and run possibilities.

Is this the typical state of Colt/Alsion courses in North America?

Frank, this is 100% spot on. Particularly with the trees, bunkers (both fairway and the overall look/feel/playability) and short areas around the greens.

[Niall Hay]

Jeff, OLCC is worth the visit. 

[Frank Pont]

Niall,

do you know if the architect who is going to do the renovation will be tackling these points?

[Niall C]

Mark

Many thanks for taking the time to post those photos, fantastic stuff and what a great piece of property. As for what they've done to it over time, Frank and Jeff have said it all. Even if they cut down the collars round the greens, that alone would make it a far better proposition. Next up would be the grassed faced bunkers.

Tim N

I think I'm right in saying that Alison was noted for his deep penal bunkers. Given some of the elevational changes round the greens its easy to imagine that at some point the bunkering must have been quite impressive.

Niall

[Niall Hay]

Niall,

do you know if the architect who is going to do the renovation will be tackling these points?

Keith Foster

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 16: Par 3, 162 Yards

After three brutally difficult and long par-3s, I was waiting for the 'short'.  I was disappointed with what I saw.  Generic looking bunkering surrounding a medium-sized, flattish green.










Hole 17: Par 4, 390 Yards

Simple [good] strategic design here - the lone fairway bunker guards the shortest line and best angle into the green.  It's about 230 to carry.




One of the scariest approaches on the course, with a huge false front short, deep bunkers set-back from the green left and right, a deep depression right of the green and one of the slopiest greens on the course.




A very interesting shape to the false-front.  Much like the 10th at Crystal Downs, shots that come up short not only roll a long way down the fairway, but also to the right behind the green side bunker.  Recoveries from tight fairway lies over the bunker are very difficult.




A deep depression guards the right side of the green.




Deep bunkering left of the green and the false-front as seen from 18 tee.




The false-front and a look back down the fairway.







Hole 18: Par 4, 351 Yards

The 18th is a fun finisher - short and quirky.  Some players may be tempted to drive the green, but for most this is a lay-up/position tee shot.  The fairway slopes significantly to the left, requiring the golfer to flirt with the trees on the right to find the fairway.




Though it is not obvious from the tee, two large trees a couple of steps from the left edge of the fairway serve to block-out any tee shots that are pulled or hooked slightly.




I would love to see the fairway cut extend all the way to the edge of the trees to reward the golfer that challenges them with a much simpler approach to the green.







Ideal tee shots up the right will funnel to this flat spot in the fairway, 70 yards from the green.




Only the outline of bunkers short-left of the green can be seen from the fairway, but the green is bunkered on all sides.

[Aaron McMaster]

In a nutshell, Frank... yes

I, too, am really impressed with the 'bones' there, at Orchard Lake. Very nice. I live minutes from this course and have never visited, for whatever reasons. Perhaps that's been a mistake. Interesting...

Very good bones at Orchard Lake.  Mark I wanted to let you know that was a great photo tour and I can tell you much has changed with trees since your visit in October.  As I get some time I will post a few more remarks regarding your comments of the holes.  I also have an aerial from 1940 and it's quite different from the ones you have posted.  Significant bunker removal has been done, as with a lot of courses in the 60's and 70's way too many trees were planted in particular Norway Maples and five greens were rebuilt.  Whats interesting is that the greens you commented on the most are not original greens.

Art Hills renovated the bunkers in 1996, hence the grass faces.  That will be a major change coming late this summer through the fall.

[Mark Saltzman]

Aaron, thank you.

Any chance you're able to post the 1940 aerial? I'd love to see what the course looked like then.

Looking forward to your comments [and feel free to correct me on things I got wrong.. wouldn't be the first time  ].

Welcome to GCA!

[Niall Hay]

Aaron, welcome to GCA! Look forward to seeing your insight on this course and others…

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