Does order of play affect opinion?

[Dan_Callahan]

I've been thinking about this question quite a bit after trips to Scotland and Ireland. When I look back on courses I liked vs those I thought were average, I wonder if that opinion is influenced based on what I had played immediately prior.

A good example of this is Connemara. I didn't love Connemara. It didn't have the drama of dunes or ocean views on many of the holes. The facility itself felt very American to me ... a big parking lot filled with Mercedes SUVs ... crowded ... fancy (for Ireland) food.

I played Connemara the day after playing Carne and two days after playing Enniscrone. Both Carne and Enniscrone had massive dunes and blind shots, and were rugged and raw. Both courses were relatively empty when I played them, which accentuated the remoteness of the location (in a good way).

I wonder if my opinion of Connemara would be different had it been the first course I had played. It's a nice design. Very fun. Challenging without being overly penal. Some of the dunes late in the layout are cool as hell and sooooo different from anything we have in the US.

When folks are rating courses and play multiple times on a vacation trip, do they ever factor in order of play and how that might influence opinion? Or is my brain simply not capable of blocking out this kind of noise?

As I look back on my trip, I really think my experience at Connemara would have been completely different had it been the first course I played, and not the last.

[Brad Tufts]

I feel like ideally a trip would be set up like a concert...maybe a medium hit at the beginning, then a less-famous course, then a few hits sprinkled in, before the iron at the end.


But, logistically that rarely works out.  I do not like one of the big ones being the first course on a trip as you are still getting used to things like the time change and the hard turf, but I have violated that one too...my only play at Lahinch was right off the red-eye with nary a wink of sleep...and i played great and loved every second of it.


Connemara I think is most interesting for where it is, and it's landscape, than it's quality as a golf course.  I didn't know it then, but having been to Iceland later I think Connemara would fit right in..they were probably connected at some point millions of years ago.

[David Wuthrich]

Dan,
You bring up a very good point.  I think that the order that you play courses might have a effect on how you feel about them, both good and bad.  Some golfers go on a destination trip and come back feeling that ALL of the courses that they played were great, when in reality only a few where.  Some golfers feel the "letdown" that you were discussing and if it is not a TOP course, then it must not be great.  It has taken me a while, but I am now able to judge each course on its own merits and not let the previous or next course I play influence me.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't see how order of play can't help but change your opinions of things.

Or with less negatives… Order of play definitely affects how you see things and your opinions of those things?

[David Wuthrich]

I can see where it might if you have not played alot of courses with different features.  But if you have been fortunate to play lots of courses with different architectural features and are not in awe of something new that you might see or not see, then it becomes easier.   

[Tom_Doak]

Merion for the first time, the day after Pine Valley for the first time, was not as exhilarating as it is normally.  Aronimink, the day after those two, was utterly boring.  So, yes, it makes a difference.

[Ira Fishman]

We planned Golspie, Brora, and RD to build to a crescendo. Did not work out that way. Could not get Swinley Forest,  St. George's Hill, and Woking scheduled with same goal, but worked out to be a crescendo albeit of an even balanced symphony.


Ira

[Ken Moum]

We planned Golspie, Brora, and RD to build to a crescendo. Did not work out that way.


Ira

Are you saying that RD wasn't the high point of playing that trio?


FWIW, although I "think" I understand why Royal Dornoch gets all the love, it is SO difficult that playing it every day would make me want to go north a few miles. 


But then I've found Brora to be as close to a perfect golf course for someone like as there is anywhere.


I like Golspie a lot (we were overseas members in 2017), but it's no Brora.

[Ira Fishman]

We planned Golspie, Brora, and RD to build to a crescendo. Did not work out that way.


Ira

Are you saying that RD wasn't the high point of playing that trio?


FWIW, although I "think" I understand why Royal Dornoch gets all the love, it is SO difficult that playing it every day would make me want to go north a few miles. 


But then I've found Brora to be as close to a perfect golf course for someone like as there is anywhere.


I like Golspie a lot (we were overseas members in 2017), but it's no Brora.

Ken,


RD was a high point but not the high point. It could be all about expectations. I knew little about Golspie and Brora except what I read on here and on Top100Courses. I have wanted to play RD since I read Golf in the Kingdom 40 years ago (to this day, I have no idea why I assumed it was RD in the book). But on a less emotional level, I thought that after Number 14, RD was good but not great so it was a bit of a flat way to end playing the three courses. I agree with you that Brora on the whole is stronger architecture than Golspie because a couple of the inland Par 4s at Golspie are repetitive, but I preferred Golspie slightly because of the quirk. 16 and 17 are as good as back to back 3s as I have played which is saying a lot. I also thought 8 and 9 very good even though inland with a non-links look.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

The biggest problem with golf course rankings is until we have seen everything, we don’t know how good or bad golf course architecture can get.  As such, order of play does matter.  If the best course you have ever seen is Bay Hill or in the example cited in this thread, Connemara, you have no idea how good golf course design can get until you play something better.  By the way, I really enjoyed Carne even more so than Enniscrone. 

The key to a good reveiw (and to enjoyable golf in general) is to embrace where you are at present and take it all in as best you can. It is nice to save the best for last on a golf trip but if anything when you play it, it should only help reinforce and/or change your views about other courses you have seen.


How else would you handle going to play the Bandon or Streamsong courses?  Which do you play first or last.  It is normal to compare one course to another but each needs to be appreciated and enjoyed for what it is and then compare it to others as you see fit. 

[Ira Fishman]

The biggest problem with golf course rankings is until we have seen everything, we don’t know how good or bad golf course architecture can get.  As such, order of play does matter.  If the best course you have ever seen is Bay Hill or in the example cited in this thread, Connemara, you have no idea how good golf course design can get until you play something better.  By the way, I really enjoyed Carne even more so than Enniscrone. 

The key to a good reveiw (and to enjoyable golf in general) is to embrace where you are at present and take it all in as best you can. It is nice to save the best for last on a golf trip but if anything when you play it, it should only help reinforce and/or change your views about other courses you have seen.


How else would you handle going to play the Bandon or Streamsong courses?  Which do you play first or last.  It is normal to compare one course to another but each needs to be appreciated and enjoyed for what it is and then compare it to others as you see fit. 

Mark,


I asked Sven in what order to play the Bandon courses. We played BD, BT, Old Mac, and PD. Although BT is my favorite, the order still makes sense. It would be hard to play PD and not have some of those holes not be your last memories.


Ira

[Michael Wolf]

Two that stick out for me when it comes this to this topic are Kingsbarns and Spyglass, for opposite reasons.


Kingsbarns absolutely receives a bump up the scale from most overseas tourists because it's closer to what they are used to playing at home, but with beautiful water views. Throw in a driving range and turf that's easier on a bad swing, and KB will always end up near the top of the list for rookies who don't understand or don't want to make the effort to learn the correct way to play a Carnoustie or New Course.


As for Spyglass, I think it would be the best coastal golf course in TX, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, most of FL, or Georgia. But everything past the 5th hole will always be a letdown after Pebble, Pasatiempo, or for the lucky dogs, MPCC and Cypress.


I do agree that there can be some recency bias when playing 8's and 9's several days in a row on Long Island or London. But it's a burden I'm willing to carry.


Michael

[Ronald Montesano]

I would certainly say that it effects opinion ...

[mike_malone]

I played Bethpage Black after NGLA. The aura of NGLA was still glowing.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I would certainly say that it effects opinion ...

That's backward. Affect is correct.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D's example is especially compelling. Otherwise I might've suggested that if the order of play *does* affect our judgement we are neither paying enough attention nor staying in the moment well enough. If we walk off a golf course with an idea of its inherent and 'absolute' quality, only to have that idea 'relativized' by the next course we play, it doesn't say all that much for the power/impact of top flight design.
P

[Sean_A]

If one truly looks at a course for what it is rather than the reputation, I don't know why the visiting order makes any difference. We all have our biases, but what matters is if we make judgements or decisions based on those biases. These are just more reasons why the idea of best courses doesn't matter much. When there are such thin margins in rankings and for the vast majority of golfers (even very well travelled) having very little experience with the vast majority courses, it becomes a crapshoot of judgements. Greatness is over-rated.

Merry Christmas

[Tommy Williamsen]

It shouldn't make a difference but sometimes it does. I played Royal Liverpool the day after I play Birkdale. The lack of drama in the land was a let down. If I had played them the other way around it might have made a difference in my opinion of Liverpool.

[Mark_Fine]

But Tommy, after you saw both you could adjust your opinions for each accordingly.  If the day after playing those two you flew over and played Portrush and then County Down you might adjust your opinions for all of them again because you just played something even better.  The more you see, the better you can compare and review.  That is where order matters.  If you never played Portrush or County Down you might not realize how good links golf can get. 

Sean,
Best does matter but to what degree is very subjective. I am sure you have your own list of best or favorite courses.   Nothing wrong with that.  That is all any list of courses really is, just a compilation of opinions (or like in Ran’s case of 147, just his opinion).