What are Pete Dye's secrets?

[Ran Morrissett]

Originally, this was going to be a thread entitled "What are your favorite manufactured courses?" Sure, every course is manufactured to some degree but when I say manufactured in the context of this post, I mean a course where 95% plus of the features are the handiwork of man.

However, I realized that such a thread would be largely dominated by Pete Dye with a few Shadow Creeks and what not thrown in, so I aborted but it made me wonder: what secrets does Pete Dye have for having so many of his  manufactured features be readily appealling ones as well?

Yes, there are some definite misses in there like that hump of dirt on the inside of the short 12th at Pete Dye GC or the formulaic 17 and 18 at Firethorn which are so out of character with the rest of the course but by and large, his record is awesome - and he has tried a lot of things.

Unfortunately, we didn't find many secrets from his Feature Interview  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran,
After perusing the photos on the Whistling Straits site I think I know one of his secrets. He trucks in several yards of sand into his backyard. Then he brings out a few fans and positions them around the leveled out sand pile. He then turns on a garden hose and alternates between a small shower or a heavy blast of water and wind from different directions, courtesy of the fans while occasionally spraying some green paint into the airstream. The finished product is then mapped and taken on site where it is faithfully reproduced.

[Ran Morrissett]

Jim, That's definitely thinking outside of the box!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran,
I read somewhere that Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus split mainly over money.  Pete didn't care about it and Jack did, by Jack's own admission.
This is probably one of his secrets. It's not the money that drives him, in the same vein that the money didn't drive the likes of Macdonald and others.  
Another secret might be the on-site time spent by him. More than many I would guess.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran,
While it may not be his secret, he undoubtedly surrounded himself with a great cast.  Rod Whitman commented to me that Pete used to be on the site and let him to what he wanted up to the point Pete had objections and he would make a few minor adjustments.  Knowing when to leave well enough alone and when to change it would seem like a secret perhaps others have not followed.

He also was smart enough to create some different styles on various properties.  I have played maybe 12-15 Dye courses and while some object to the middle body of work, he seems to have pulled out of that.  With that exception there is great contrast between courses such as Harbour Town to TPC to Whistling Straits.  While I am not as critical of Fazio as others here, I would say that this has been sorely lacking.  Many of his holes have similar man made features, which run together for me.

Just so you don't think I am missing your point completely, I think he experimented well with different things and changed when they got tired or he wanted to move on.

[Jeff Mingay]

First, in my experience with Dye courses, Pete gets the angles right. Much the same as Raynor's stuff, Pete's courses play so well, and so interesting, that the fact that some features appear "manufactured" is irrelevant.

And, further to Ben's comments above, I don't get the impression that Pete's ever presumed to "know it all". It's true that he allowed Whitman -- and I presume also others -- to shape and screw around with the land, without any pre-conceived notions, just to see what would happen. In fact, I'd bet some of Pete's best stuff is the result of "happy accidents." And I bet he'd be the first to admit it.

Whitman allows me the same "freedom". "Just build something", he says. So I do, and Rod modifies what he doesn't like architecturally, and what will not work functionally in his learned opinion. It's a fantastic method of building golf courses. Many things are created that could never been conceived accurately on paper.

Pete's unconventional. And history teels us that the best golf courses were built unconventionally.

That is why Pete Dye is Pete Dye, Rod Whitman is Rod Whitman. Bill Coore is Bill Coore, Bobby Weed is Bobby Weed, and Tom Doak is Tom Doak.

God bless Pete Dye  

[Chris Hervochon]

A little off topic, but I just want to say Harbour Town is one of the most incredible courses on Earth.  Ditto to the Ocean Course.  I have not yet had the priviledge of playing all his greatest designs, but I am not sure how they could be better than those two.

[A_Clay_Man]

The unpretentious attention to detail combined with the practical experience that leads to knowledge. And perhaps the attitude that when the day is done it's just golf.
Would be my guess.
But if it's a secret, I'd rather figure it out. So far I've figured out that when he wants you to hit a certain shot, you'd better hit it. Or be able to get up and down from some challenging predicaments.
 Having been recently saturated in Dye country, (ccod, dunes& mt), I have devolped an even higher appreciation for his craftsmanship. (Which was pretty high to begin with being one of the few who played the original river-valley in Kohler.)
God Bless the entire Dye clan and namesakes too!
As a side: The first time I logged on here, his interview was my very first read. Needless to say i was hooked for life.  

[Will E]

Ran,
You nailed it. Pete Dye is the Ben Hogan of golf course architecture. Dye interviews much like Hogan did.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

In response to Chris' comments on Harbour Town and Kiawah, I think that supports my argument.  Those two courses are so unique to one another, yet they are brilliant and people enjoy both of them so much.  That is tough to say about many architects.  It is obviously why there is a dissenting opinion against his work for the same reasons.
He would be in my all-time architecture foursome.

[Tony Ristola]

I'd say his secret was realizing he needed to spend more time on-site to build the type of golf courses the Dye's wanted to create.  His book states so much.

He also eschews plans.  The one guy in the ASGCA. (?)  Therefore he and now his assistants are not restricted to building something which was planned in an office a world away.  He can utilize every opportunity and fit them into the overall scheme...flow.  He could monitor and reevaluate.  Monitor and evaluate... face-to-face communication.  

When something is novel, someone has to communicate the novel ideas... how can a contractor take the plans and know full-well the architects "novel" concepts from a handful of "visits"?  They can't, and they won't risk deviating from the plans because if the architect doesn't like it, it's coming out of the contractors pocket.  With Dye, he eschewed golf course contractors and seems to have encouraged risk taking... contractors don't risk... they stick to the paint-by -number-kit.

[Paul Richards]

Attention to detail, and the fact that he spends so much
time on-site, getting his hands dirty.

It amazes me when I visit some fancy new course with a
"name" architect and they brag about his "four on-site" visits.

How can you get to know a piece of land well enough in "four
on-site" visits?  Pete lives there.  Big difference.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

One of the things we're doing at the new Turtle Point clubhouse is to create an homage to the architects who built our courses on the second floor .  We're in the process of collecting architectural drawings from Fazio of Osprey Point, Nicklaus of Turtle Point and Player of Cougar Point.  However, we ran into a bit of a bind with Pete and The Ocean Course.  He doesn't use architectural drawings.  Tommy Cuthbert (our director of golf) said that Pete told him that other architects use them because they're not on site.  He lived in Kiawah while building The Ocean Course and spent most of his time on earth movers while here so he never found the need for them....  I guess we'll just have some renderings done...

[idea guy]

mike,

kind of makes you wonder....


maybe instead of renderings you should get a dirty pair of boots, an old shovel and rake, a dozer key and a few pictures of pete on equipment.  that would be a better homage than "fake" drawings.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Paul,
     I won't deny Dye doesn't live at many or most of his designs as I wouldn't know, but I'm pretty sure he didn't "live" at Lost Canyons as has been confirmed by others here (Tommy?  Lynn or Geoff?).

     I also won't deny Dye's tremendous influence on modern design, but I've always thought that The Ocean Course would be better had a minimalist architect been able to have a go at it.  A site like that begs for minimalism.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony Ristola is absolutely correct.  Almost all of Dye's best courses were real labors of love, with the emphasis on LABOR.  

It also helps that Dye is somewhat of a mad genius, who is not afraid to create something controversial or different.  

However, I think he's been sort of suffering from "writer's block" for most of the past decade, with many of his more recent courses becoming almost parodies of his renowned style.  He's also fallen into the trap of the stereotypical finishing holes, and I think it's simply a matter of more and more courses bearing the Pete Dye name that do not have the same level of personal involvement as his works at The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run, Casa de Campo, Harbour Town, Kiawah, and others.  

Unfortunately, it seems to be the price of grand success, and I think a good case can be made that a similar weakening of quality with the advent of quantity can be made for Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus, as well.

[Jeff Fortson]

I think the biggest secret is that if you are a woman all of his courses become much easier.

The reason why?.......

Because he never wanted to build a course that his wife would have trouble playing.  I need breast implants!

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Scott--

While the site of The Ocean Course now may seem like it "begs for minimalism," that wasn't the case when Pete was here developing it.  He had the course staked out on the dunes in '89 when Hurricane Hugo hit.  Since Kiawah sat south of where the eye of the storm came ashore, the entire dune structure was blown out to sea.  He had to come in here and complete reconstruct the dune structure that was there before the storm.  After Hugo, the site was little more than a moonscape...

Idea Guy--

We've got pictures of the site under construction with shapers and water spraying down the dunes to keep them from blowing away overnight and Pete taking "test shots" with a 5 iron...  We're just working on some renderings of the holes as they are now...

[Jeff McDowell]

I would like to hear from more people that have worked with him (Tom Doak), but when I read his book a few things struck me as very interesting.

He is definitely willing to try something new. I believe it was Harbor Town that he said he intentionally did the opposite of what other architects were doing at the time.

He also told a story about going to buy a present for his wife (I think it was a fur coat) and seeing a used bulldozer for sale. He bought the dozer and practiced moving dirt in his backyard. I can't imagine my wife allowing this.

Another story he mentioned was how he used chicken wire to stabilize steep slopes long before erosion control fabric was around.

It seems he has a rare combination of passion, creativity, and guts.

[Jeff Mingay]

I remember talking about Jack Nicklaus and his career once and my dad said something to effect of, "Jack wouldn't have been Jack without Barbara."

Indeed, Barbara supported Jack in good and bad times (and still does). And she's taken great care of the Nicklaus family (as we understand) in Jack's absence and throughout his financial ups-and-downs over the years.

I think it's the same with Pete Dye, and many other successful guys for that matter. I'm sure Alice's support of Pete's desire to design and build golf courses was profound, particularly in the early years of Pete's transformation from life insurance salesman to golf course archtiect. And her continuing support throughout the years, even greater.

I mean, it's be pretty difficult for a guy to be successful when his wife is constantly complaining about money, his hectic travel schedule, and his absence from home life.

Good wives are under-rated... I've got to remember that  

[A Clay Man]

Mike- What little personal facts I know of Mr. Dye may be of some help if you want to pay homage. Use some hand drawings on paper napkins and then somehow work in his love for Andy Griffith's Matlock.

[Doug Wright]

I went back and reread Pete's terse (to say the least!) Feature Interview and it actually has a couple of nuggets in there. The one word he uses a couple of times is "variety." And then I was looking at the Perceptions on Architecture  thread and Tom MacWood said the following: "... stress variety -- variety of lengths, variety of startegic tactics and a variety of interesting hazards." I think that sums one of the secret's of Pete's success pretty well.

[Tony Ristola]

Mike:  You call Pete a "mad genious"... I've written to someone else that I don't think he's such a genius, but just a guy who knows golf well, knows construction and is willing to sacrifice his time... to focus... to work hard instead of hardly work.  He's no follower.

This time on-site... allowed for consistent evaluation and communication... and allowed him to take more chances... play close to the line because he (and Alice) knew and know where the line of folly is.

Contractors and plan drawers won't risk getting remotely close to that line for fear it turns out a mess.  Then there are the additional costs to fix 'em... plus it would really start the questions as to whether planning is critically important after all.

During the past years has he handed off design work to a greater degree than before?  If so, it could account for "writers block".  He's more dependent on ghost writers... like most in the industry.

[Paul Richards]

Whistling Straights is just amazing.  Having played there a
few years ago, I was really impressed.  But what I saw there
this fall was unbelievable.  In preparing it for the PGA, Pete
Dye has spent a bunch of time there lately (in fact, I went up and introduced myself to him there that day).

After going nuts over the course, it was a real honor to be
able to sign for my 75 from the second back set of tees!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Paul,
That is a damn fine round.  Was the wind up that day?  Both times I have played the course the back tees simply were not an option, hitting third shots into either the eighth or the 15th were not appealing.

What sort of changes are been made?  I saw some in the fall of 2000, most notably the back nine spectator mounds and the walkway, are there more?
Ben