"They lose balls in trees at Olympic"

[Jay Flemma]

I was reading up on Olympic and saw this interesting line.  "They lose balls in trees at Olympic." They said members tell a story about how when one big branch got pruned, it had over 50 balls stuck in it!

About how many trees are gone since 1998?  Art Spander said they cut down a lot but that they, "still have a zillion trees...one fairway bunker and a zillion trees and reverse camber, that's Olympic Club."

Will the trees put more of a premium on driving accuracy than we have seen the last few years?  Will the trees act as a restricter on the "graded rough?"

I also love Dan Jenkins - "Of all the traditions in golf, the one at Olympic Club is the most annoying.  Hold an Open there and the wrong guy will win it every time."  Why do we get plodders and grinders?  The reverse camber? The trees? The greens? All 3?

What are the best greens at Oly?

[David_Tepper]

Jay -

Most of the tree removal at Olympic has been done on the holes/areas on the upper part of the property, mostly on the front nine. A lot of the areas where trees were removed (such as behind the 3rd green) were not really in play. There are still plenty of trees in play on the back nine that can snag a wayward tee shot.

The tree lines between #9 & #18, between #10 & #16 and between #11 & #14 are still thick. The tee shot thru the chute from the new way back tee on #16 will be a challenge. The back tees on #6 and #12 will demand straight driving as well.

The greens on the Lake are subtle, rather than dramatic. They rely on the overall slope of the property to challenge the golfer. The 17th probably has the most slope and is a tough target to hit when going for the green in two.

DT  

[Jed Peters]

Can someone bring up that picture/post that--after a storm--the entire fairway/area under the tree was covered with balls that had been knocked out of them?

[Kirk Moon]

I played at Harding Park (very similar to Olympic Lake wrt trees) this Winter the morning after the first big, windy storm came through.

Balls littered the ground under the trees all over the course.  A true bonanza for ball scavengers.  For me, it just made it harder to find my ball, particularly since I seem to spend an inordinate amount of my time in and/or around same trees.  : ) 

The trees at Olympic will definitely put a premium on driving accuracy and will not be kind to those who are long but inaccurate. 

In my experience, whether a ball stays up in the canopy or not depends on the speed the ball is carrying when it hits the tree and what part of the tree it hits.  The most common scenario for a ball to stay up is when the ball lands in the canopy after it has reached its zenith and has just begun its descent.  Another scenario is when the ball hits high in the tree and ricochets around in the upper canopy, killing momentum. The ball then falls gently into the lower canopy and gets caught.  In general, if you hear the ball hit wood you are probably going to be OK.  The silent ones are the potential killers.  I would make a wild guesstimate that around 20-30% of balls hit into the upper canopy stay in the canopy. 

[Jay Flemma]

Can someone bring up that picture/post that--after a storm--the entire fairway/area under the tree was covered with balls that had been knocked out of them?

I heard about that!

DT, great post and analysis.  I also think Kirk's assessment is right on as well.

[Ian Larson]

We're talking about eucalyptus trees, right? If so my experience with them at Riviera and LACC is that you need a hefty tree pruning budget. If they are so dense that balls are actually getting STUCK in them, that says to me that they are not matching the pruning frequency to the growth. They have to be completely thinned out at least once a year. They are the most rapidly growing and messy trees I've ever dealt with. We had a tree crew at LACC weekly working their way around the course. And by the time they got through the course it was time to start over.

[David_Tepper]

Ian -

No, we are not talking about eucalyptus trees, although there are a few on the OC property. We are talking about Monterey Pines.

Aerial photos here: http://www.premieraerials.com/node/114601

DT  

[Kirk Moon]

Ian -

No, we are not talking about eucalyptus trees, although there are a few on the OC property. We are talking about Monterey Pines.

Aerial photos here: http://www.premieraerials.com/node/114601

DT  

No eucalyptus.  Cypress trees and Monterey Pines. 

[MHiserman]

How many?
Thousands!!!
and Yes, quite a few Titleist with MERRILL stamped on them.

Kirk and David are correct.
Monterey Pine hold a few golf balls but mostly the Cypress. 
The flat limbs tend to hold keep the wayward shots up in the canopy.
Tommy Nakajima remembers it well from 1987, on the 18th hole.
Yes Mr. Tepper the majority of tree removal has been on the North side of the Lake Course.
There has been a great amount of tree thinning between the 9th and 18th fairway, even though the trees are still up between these holes.
During 2007 there was a week worth of tree thinning on all the trees between 9 and 18.  On a late afternoon round, our group came up on the crew and as anyone would we asked..."How many balls have your guys found?"
The crew took us over to the truck that had them. 
There were 3 completely packed, LARGE duffel bags of every kind of "pebble" imaginable. 
We truly found K28's, Titleist 384's, Prostaff (deep dimple), and even a couple of Dot's.  It was pretty amazing how many golf balls and the years of golf ball production the crew found.
I still have a few that he told us to take if we wanted just because of the old and obscure variety we saw in the bags.

How long it had been between trimmings I don't know but the question was asked.

Oh, and you know that the trees at Olympic hold golf balls because there are a good number of members and employees, Leon, that always like to walk the course after a good windy storm.

[Jay Flemma]

Has anybody got a picture of any of those branches and balls?  That would be hilarious!

I must say, I'm really enjoying doing the research on Oly.   I like what Reilly said when Arnie hit it on 18 where Hogan did..."Olympic was getting eerie again..."

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I grew up in North Louisiana as many of you know. A wild driver might lose a ball in a tree once a year in a bad year. I have enjoyed playing at the Olympic club for many years now. It is the one place in my golfing life where losing a ball in a tree is a known and legitimate hazard to consider when setting up to make a shot. I have no doubt a few will lose balls in the trees in the US Open this year. The right side of 5 and 9 as well as 16 are the holes which seem to come to mind as ball eaters for me.

[Kirk Moon]

We had a kind of interesting situation develop during a round this past year that involved a ball in a cypress tree that could be theoretically be repeated in the US Open.

One of my playing partners (who is a 3 handicap and usually deadly accurate) had a momentary lapse and pulled a tee shot into a cypress tree (yes, the cypress are definitely the major ball eaters by virtue of the horizontal, layered shape of their canopy - Monterey pines not so much).  We saw it enter the tree, bounce around a bit, then fall ever so gently 20 feet or so towards the ground only to get caught up in the foliage of the lowest most branch, around 12 feet off the ground.  With relatively little effort we were able to spot a ball, but couldn't see it well enough to visually confirm that it was, indeed, his ball.  

If I understand the rules of golf sufficiently well (and there is a good chance that I don't), we were of the opinion that if he could identify his ball he would be eligible to take an unplayable lie, take a one stroke penalty, drop the ball under the tree, and go on about his business.  If he couldn't definitively identify the ball, he would be forced to take a lost ball penalty and be penalized stroke and distance.

He decided that he would like to try to "identify" the ball, but there was absolutely no way he could climb up into the tree to do that, so he decided to try to knock the ball out of the tree by throwing various and sundry objects at it.  The first few tries were, rather dubiously, with golf clubs.  Fortunately, someone suggested that he try a water bottle and after a few more tries the ball was dislodged from its perch, identified as his ball, dropped and played.  He went on to get a bogey on the hole, saving a buck or two in our always entertaining match.  

Perhaps we'll be treated to a replay at the Open. Could make for entertaining TV.   : )

[Jay Flemma]

But if he tries to dislodge the ball from the tree with a golf club, why isn't that a stroke?  Or does it come under "trying to identify the ball" and then you replace it or take a drop?  Calling John VB!  The white courtesy phone is ringing for you...

[Andy Stamm]

Faldo did this at 14 at Pebble in the Open. The rules official gave the ok to his plan to shake the tree and identify after it fell out, and then he'd take an unplayable. But, the ball never came down, so it was lost.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/20/sports/golf-where-s-faldo-check-the-trees.html

[Kirk Moon]

But if he tries to dislodge the ball from the tree with a golf club, why isn't that a stroke?  Or does it come under "trying to identify the ball" and then you replace it or take a drop?  Calling John VB!  The white courtesy phone is ringing for you...

Interesting question. 

Does throwing a club in the general direction of the ball without having "addressed" the ball first and with no intent to move it forward count as a stroke?  Would it be different if a water bottle were used?   Only a rule obsessed sport like golf would be likely to have a rule which might apply to this situation. 

Of course it was completely moronic to use a club at all  - why swap a $3 golf ball for a $300 driver in the tree?  But hey, we're morons.  Brilliant ideas come naturally to us.   

The Faldo episode is perfect!  Same basic situation.  Guess our basic logic was approximately correct.

[Jay Flemma]

Interesting question..even though he has addressed the ball, he has attempted to move it with a stroke. 

[Andy Stamm]

If the club moving the ball were a stroke, then shaking the tree and moving the ball would surely constitute a penalty for moving the ball as would picking up a ball that is in deep grass to identify it. So, I'm guessing you're allowed to move a ball be it with a club, shaking a tree, or your hand for the purposes of identification. Once identified, you replace the ball, recreate the lie and play away. Or in case you can't or don't want to replace it, you can now play it as unplayable and take those options.

[Anthony Gray]

  What kind of trees are they?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is amazing that these balls stay put in the cypress trees through many years of winter storms. I did not even notice more than a little thinning between 9 and 18. It shows how attentive I am. The way the light interacts with the trees along that treeline there make for some of the greenest grass I have even seen.

[David_Tepper]

Anthony Gray -

As stated in an earlier thread: "Cypress trees and Monterey Pines."
 

It should be noted that losing balls lost in trees in the San Francisco area is not unique to the Olympic Club. I have seen it happen at both the Presidio and Harding Park. I am sure it has happened at a number of other courses here as well.

DT

[Kirk Moon]

Anthony Gray -

As stated in an earlier thread: "Cypress trees and Monterey Pines."
 

It should be noted that losing balls lost in trees in the San Francisco area is not unique to the Olympic Club. I have seen it happen at both the Presidio and Harding Park. I am sure it has happened at a number of other courses here as well.

DT

As a matter of fact, I imagine that it might be a bit more common to lose a ball in a tree at Harding Park or Presidio because it seems to me that the O Club has pruned the branches of their Cypress trees somewhat higher up the trunk than at these other courses.

I play most of my rounds at Harding and have done extensive hands on research on "ball-tree" interactions.      

One other factoid that some of you may not be familiar with regarding the Cypress trees on the courses around Lake Merced (O Club, SFGC, Lake Merced GC, Harding Park) is that the limbs of these trees are not particularly strong and huge branches tend to break off in wind storms and either snag up in the canopy or fall to the ground.  This occurs in storms that don't cause similar damage to other tree species (like Monterey Pines).  Some of this fragility may be due to the nature of the tree itself (I have zero knowledge about tree science) and some may simply be a reflection that many of the Cypress trees on these courses are reaching the end of their life (having been planted back in the 1920's).  Whatever the cause, after a windy storm it is common to find large branches from the Cypress trees on the ground all over the course or dangling by a thread up in the canopy of the tree.  Kind of heartbreaking to see, actually.  Some of these branches are strategically important and the loss of them results in a significant alteration of the character and strategic demands of the hole.  The Cypress trees are very beautiful (I prefer them to the Monterey pines), so I hope that the courses in the area are able to replace them with new trees without losing the character of the courses in the transition period. 

Another tree factoid - a question actually.  I have noticed that the Monterey Pines all over the Bay Area and down into the Monterey Peninsula seem to be getting hit with some kind of disease that slowly but surely kills off the tree.  Starts with some dead branches but slowly leads to death of the entire tree.  Doesn't affect every tree.  Kind of picks them out at random. Does anyone know what is the cause of this? 

[David_Tepper]

Kirk M. -

I think "pitch canker" is the culprit:

http://frap.cdf.ca.gov/pitch_canker/prevention_management/cal_ag.html

DT

[Kirk Moon]

Kirk M. -

I think "pitch canker" is the culprit:

http://frap.cdf.ca.gov/pitch_canker/prevention_management/cal_ag.html

DT

Thanks David.  That looks exactly like what I have been seeing.   

Some of the Monterey pines at Harding are afflicted including one very large tree that is right at the inside apex of the dogleg left on the par 5 10th hole.  This huge tree is now almost completely dead.  When it is brought down it will significantly change the nature of the hole. 

I noticed this problem the last time I was down in Carmel too so I know this problem exists in the Del Monte forest as well.  Sad to see.  Could radically change the nature of the courses on the Monterey Peninsula over the next 10-20 years. 

[Jay Flemma]

The trees and the reverse camber should be quite the restrictor plate on scoring then?

[Mike Benham]

The trees and the reverse camber should be quite the restrictor plate on scoring then?

Let's remember that these are professional golfers (and a few top notch amateurs), I doubt the trees will bother their good shots all that much.  No doubt that the winner will likely be the straightest driver of the week, that's usually the same MO whether the course is Olympic or Shinnecock.
  

The single biggest factor that will throttle scores is the firmness of the turf.  Only when the fairways get firm and fast does the reverse camber matter, if it is soggy like at Congressional, tee shots will stick like lawn darts.  

If it is firm and fast, trying to keep the ball from rolling through the fairway into the rough is paramount, the Tiger 2-iron zinger will be used on many holes including the 505 yard par-4 first hole.  In fact, you may see guys hitting 4 and 5 irons on 430-450 yard par 4s to try to control the ball, to the extent they can, when it hits terra firma.

And it is an over generalization to say "the trees", the width of the fairway corridors, except for a few holes is actually quite generous, look at the Google Maps Aerials and slide through the time period from 1938 to the present and see the changes and thinning of the trees.

In fact, if Mike Davis really wanted to shock the pro's, he could eliminate all the rough (on holes 4, 5, 9 and 16 would be a good start) all the way out to the treeline so that tee shots will continue to bound into the trees, instead of catching the rough.  Being in the rough on the outside of the dogleg on those holes is not all that bad but if you were 20-30 yards farther and in the trees, the recovery is that much more difficult.

The largest impact of "trees" is near the tee box, the somewhat narrow chutes that you hit out of on 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, 12, 14 and 16.  It's doubtful that Bubba Watson will be aiming 30 yards right and hitting a big old country slice and finishing in the middle of the fairway.

I have many photos, here are a couple that show how much more open, visually, the Lake is since the last Open.

3rd hole - 2004




3rd hole - 2009




Looking across 5 green up the 4th fairway (before the clearing, you could not see any part of the 4th fairway)




And Jay, if you come to 'Frisco for the Open, don't call it Oly ...