[Eric Smith]

A few images of 14.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mac:

Thanks for sharing these.

Re 14, I think I look at it terms of the mindset of the scratch player (not that I'm scratch).  It seems that the hole places a premium on distance off of the tee, and the only real reward is if you do hit the green on your second.  

For a player that doesn't hit the ball that long, the hole sounds like it is a three-shotter.  There's a choice being made to lay up, but it sounds like its a choice being dictated by necessity, rather than risk/reward.  The inability to play a long, running shot into this green takes that option out of play for many.

If anything, it sounds like a hole that doesn't fall in to the traditional par paradigm.  Kingsley 15 is another hole of this ilk, but for different reasons, mostly having to do with the size of the green on a longer hole.

On Mike's thoughts, as we discussed, I'm a big fan of doing homework before seeing a new course.  I know others like to go in blind without any preconceptions.  I brought this up on the thread discussing blind holes, but if I'm visiting a course for only one or two plays without the likelihood of getting back to it any time soon, I'd rather have a base of knowledge to let me enjoy the round and perhaps avoid a few mistakes.  I used the 5th hole at Lost Farm as an example, one where knowing the ideal line off of the tee helps a great deal, although it seems counterintuitive when playing the hole for the first time.

Mike focused more on the style of course that was encountered and compared Dismal to Mountain Golf.  I find it hard to believe that anyone going out to Mullen was expecting to find a parkland style course.  

The Sand Hills/Dismal gentle v. bold comparison seems to make a bit more sense.  On my first to Nebraska to play golf, I hit up Wild Horse and Bayside.  Wild Horse, which I played first, came across as a seamless design, where the overall style was consistent from start to finish.  Bayside started the same way, but when we got to the back nine I had to check myself.  It would have been easy to say I don't like this because it is completely different from what I just experienced and from what I was expecting.  Instead, I realized I was in for a different type of ride than the front side, and the prior day at WH.  It was pretty easy to embrace the transition, as the back nine at Bayside presents some wonderful challenges and is chock full of features and landforms that presented shots that you don't get to experience many other places.

I guess I just don't buy the "I didn't like it because it was different from what I saw yesterday" argument.  I can appreciate that it happens, but I think its a pretty short-sighted and narrow approach to comparing and contrasting golf courses.  I wouldn't give much credence to anyone that simply said I didn't like Dismal because I was expecting something like Sand Hills.  Even worse, I'd think anyone that said I didn't like Dismal because I was expecting to see a flatter more traditional layout was an idiot.  You probably just drove through miles of terrain that indicated that that would not be the case, unless of course you arrived in the middle of the night.

In short, I think Mike has a point, but I don't think it necessarily explains all of the early criticism of Dismal.

[Kalen Braley]

Given that Matt Ward is no longer a member here...

I feel I need to step in at this point and say something about trying exotic Thai Food!!   

For those who recall, Matt used to compare eating Thai Food to playing something different and that it was worth it, even if only for the mere fact of going out of your comfort zone to try something new.  For those who always eat Steak and potatoes, and always want to play it safe and never step out into the "exotic" world, you might find that you like Thai Food. 

And I suspect the same is true for Dismal.

[Sven Nilsen]

As an aside, I'd venture that playing the right tees is the key element to appreciating Dismal.  I'd be willing to bet there were a few early critics that let hubris get in the way of playing the course in the most optimal manner for their game.

[Chris Johnston]

Sven - on #14, with a downhill drive and speed slots, most everyone is a long hitter.  You are right, if you can't get to the slots, you should  move up.

I do agree that the early criticism comes from the fact that it is indeed very different, the greens needed some work, and the other things highlighted in the thread.  I certainly wouldn't say people were wrong early on.  There is no question the course is more fun today and that is a case study is progress. 

I can't wait for you to see it in person.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Phew, days and days to get through this thread.

Jim, I hope this is not taking this off track.
I found Mike W's post on the "Adventure golf" very interesting, he mentioned Kingsley and Ballyhack, the Thai Food of American golf courses, can anyone point out for me any classic age "Thai Restaurants" in the US. (Any Thai on the menu Chris?)
- are there any Adventurous courses in the top 100 classical or modern, or was that perhaps the point of the ranking part of the post.

For those that have seen it, would you put Cape Kidnappers in this category?

[Scott Warren]

Brett,

I thought Mike's comment was really interesting also and probably a great observation. I know he has played Kidnappers, so hopefully he'll chime back in.

Would probably be a great topic for its own thread.

I think as far as adventurous Golden Age courses, Yale certainly deserves discussion. MRB architecture is fairly adventurous generally and at Yale that is combined with bold, adventurous land and an immense scale that emphasises both.

Again, I know Mike has also been to Yale so hopefully he might chime in on that as well.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks for posting those pics of 14 Eric, it certainly assists after only seeing the descriptions, and why I also encourage a hole by hole thread.

I wonder if there is a fourth design style, along with the heroics, penal and strategic? That of the legend pro golfer (Super Heroic) looking at the approach into the 14th, my first thought was that of a G.Norman design, where some of the shots required, ask such high quality skill, that the option is only available to very low scratch marker type golfer. The fronting bunker, looks pretty dead to me, and certainly looks as though a shot in there equals worse than double bogey, so as Sven noted (I think), it really is not a consideration or temptation to have a crack at the green, so, it is even more than a half par hole?

Now, I certainly do not a problem with that type of hole, but it does belong in the often discussed here black championship tee dilemma of it only being suitable for 1-5% of golfers that are playing the course.

For those that have played DR, am I way off the mark?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Brett,
your off the mark a bit in that you fail to mention all the room left of the bunker. You can play to the left and have a simple chip onto the green. It is a difficult par 4, and I've played at the flag when I hit a good drive, and to the left when I didn't.
If you need par 4s where everyone can go at the flag from anywhere then you'll probably not like this hole. If you like par 4s, (this is the hardest one on the course) where you can either take on the hazard, or play safe and hope for an up and down, then you'll like this hole.
I think there are some decent par 4s in the world where playing safe and making par with an up and down is a decent play. I know the 15th at Kingsley is like this, and I think there is one in Scotland where that strategy is often employed as well. All very different holes, but all can be played with a similar approach.

I've also been in the front bunker. Its not an easy up and down by any means, but double or worse? Where do you get that from? 

[Chris DeNigris]

One of my favorite par 4s is BPB 5. In roughly a dozen plays I've never hit that green. Often not even close. One day I will and that will be a great day

Part of the reason I like that hole so much is because it is so challenging...I haven't played DR (yet) but that is why I think I'm really going to like it. The same way I really like Kingsley and Ballyhack.

I probably wouldn't want more than one or two of those type of supreme challenges on a course but one is most welcomed.

And I think BPB might qualify as a classic that has some of the adventure/heroic characteristics as some of these great moderns that we're talking about.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Don,
I didn't mention the area left, as that was a given for the less skilled or out of position golfer, who still needs to then chip and 1-2 putt?
I am certainly not talking about P4s where you can go at the pin from anywhere, that is the opposite extreme of the point I was trying to make so poorly, but to me a half par hole offers a chance - slim - to hit an approach to front or back edge, away from a pin position, but still tough chance to make par.  But, if I want to go at a flag, and in this situation - on 14, from the photo angles - it appears almost all pin positions, the hole 'requires' me to carry over a hazard, to me this is penal, not heroic or strategic, as you may sometimes see on courses with water, and in keeping with my point of the style of a legend tour player, who I am sure can play those kind of shots with their eyes closed. Of course, as long as we could put all the way around the bunker, life is good and golf fun!

Double or worse: Just looks from the photos like it is a pretty deep bunker complex, and assume the flag is blind,... is it?  It is certainly not a criticism when I mentioned 6 +, but rather that it looks as though taking it on may not be worth the potential to stuff up a shot, green also looks pretty big with some nice undulations, plenty of room to 3 putt?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Chris,
What is BPB?

[Keith OHalloran]

Bethpage Black. If I can speak for Chris.

[Michael George]

Thanks for the photos Eric.  The hole looks fantastic.  Wide driving area followed by exacting second shot. 

Looks like shorter players can hit 3 wood or long irons to the left side. 

Courses should be playable for all players - but playable does not mean pars.  Let the shorter hitter play left or even short of the swale.   

[Mark Saltzman]

Thanks for the photos Eric.  The hole looks fantastic.  Wide driving area followed by exacting second shot. 

Looks like shorter players can hit 3 wood or long irons to the left side. 

Courses should be playable for all players - but playable does not mean pars.  Let the shorter hitter play left or even short of the swale.   

Michael, this is very well said and I completely agree.

Re 14: I don't recall there being all that much room over there to bailout or play left purposely. IIRC, it was firm fairway cut sloping away from the green for about 10 yards, then cart path, then tall grass. Not enough room that I would aim over there and be confident even if I hit it where I amed it wouldn't end up in the tallgrass.

[Eric Smith]

More views of the area to the left of 14 green:

[Anthony Gray]

  How could you not see 14 as bold?

[Mike Hogan]

Here is a shot of 14 from the Tee.


Looking Back towards Tee from behind green.

[Anthony Gray]

  Bump

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