Dismal River: A Case Study

[Michael Whitaker]

Critics looked for minimalism and found naturalism. It blew their minds. Their loss. Nicklaus invented a new genre at Dismal which is why I claim it was just too far ahead of its time. We are catching up post by post.

Jeepers JakaB - get on a plane and go to the UK.  A simple trip like this would prevent you from making such silly pronouncements.

Ciao

John,

I don't think Nicklaus invented a new genre. The course he built at Dismal is very much like some of his mountain designs:  for example, The Cliffs at Keowee Falls and The Reserve at Lake Keowee have many of the same type holes you find at DR. The difference is that you expect to find that type of course when you visit the mountains of upstate South Carolina. Most people who first visit Dismal are not expecting a mountain course in the middle of Nebraska... I know I wasn't. I would wager that a good many of the raters who were new to the area were shocked by the severity of the terrain. I had envisioned a links-like environment and was blown away with the mountainous nature of the property. As you know, mountain courses (for the most part) do not fair too well in national rankings, which is why I think Dismal did not get much love in the beginning. Raters who were expecting to find a "classic" course on linksy terrain had to be caught off guard. I was.

Like anything that's different from the norm, sometimes it takes a while for a new product or business to find its audience. This is what is happening with Dismal. Golfers who like traditional courses in a classic setting will not be happy with DR. Those who enjoy a rollicking course and have a sense of adventure will be overjoyed. That's is why Mac and Eric are so enthusiastic about Dismal. I would guess you are cut from the same cloth.

As for the reasons Dismal had a poor showing early on in the national rankings (IMHO):

1) As I've already mentioned... the mountainous terrain. Mountainous courses do not fair as well with a lot of raters. I think it is because a cart is almost 100% required and (IMO) a good number of raters will mark a course down if it is not walkable by "normal" golfers. I know that some on here (Patron!) say the course is walkable, but for the average golfer this just is not the case. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the 5th Major group deals with the walkability of the course this June.

2) Because of the terrain (and because the course is nearly a mile from the clubhouse) not only are carts necessary, but they must be gasoline powered carts. I'm not opposed to using a cart when required, but I REALLY dislike gasoline powered ones. The noise goes totally against everything I enjoy about golf. Sorry, but the 10-12 minute ride from the clubhouse to the course in a gas powered cart is not the best way to start your day. Unfortunately, battery powered carts would never have the torque and stamina to work at Dismal, so gas is the only option. It is just a feature that has to be over looked... yet, as we know some will have a problem doing that.

3) CJ has commented that early on the watering patterns were out of whack and a lot of the native areas were overgrown and too thick for proper golf. I'm sure this had a factor on early negative reviews. When I played there last June I didn't find this to be such a problem, and believe me, I gave it a good test!   Having to hunt for golf balls is one of the most frustrating things one can do... especially if it happens over and over on most every hole. I'm glad this problem has been fixed and is ever improving.

4) Dismal is a roller coaster ride of a golf course. This only appeals to a niche group of golfers. As I said before, if you like thrilling holes on bold terrain then you will love DR. Most of the Golfweek panelists I have met are much more "traditional" in their appreciation of golf courses. I would expect them to rate DR over-the-top in its design, which is why I think it doesn't show up on the top 100 lists. Kingsley Club and Ballyhack have the same problem. Golfers who love thrilling, rollicking courses like these cannot understand why they are not rated more highly... while those who dislike these bold designs vote against them. As my grandmother used to say, "that is why they make chocolate and vanilla." Currently there are just more chocolate lovers out there.

Finally, I would highly recommend to anyone who enjoys DR that they visit Ballyhack. Ballyhack is the one course I have played that delivers a very similar golfing experience to DR. I tried to get a thread going a while back comparing the two courses... but, I must be the only person on here who has played both of them because I couldn't get anyone to participate. Maybe this summer we can try again.

[Tim Gavrich]

Is there a heavy correlation between handicap and sentiment among those who feel strongest--both in defense and in opposition (or nonplussedness) about DR?  Is it one of those courses that frustrates higher handicappers a little more than others?  Such a case would not be out of line with many, many other Nicklaus courses.  I know that that's the case at my home course, Pawleys Plantation.  Based on a few hundred rounds, the lower your handicap, the more you're going to enjoy it.

I don't mean to seem like I'm looking down my nose at higher-handicap players in the least; I just feel very strongly that there are a number of courses about which golfers of quite different handicaps will feel quite differently.

[Anthony Gray]

Is there a heavy correlation between handicap and sentiment among those who feel strongest--both in defense and in opposition (or nonplussedness) about DR?  Is it one of those courses that frustrates higher handicappers a little more than others?  Such a case would not be out of line with many, many other Nicklaus courses.  I know that that's the case at my home course, Pawleys Plantation.  Based on a few hundred rounds, the lower your handicap, the more you're going to enjoy it.

I don't mean to seem like I'm looking down my nose at higher-handicap players in the least; I just feel very strongly that there are a number of courses about which golfers of quite different handicaps will feel quite differently.

  I believe this was the complaint early on. That it was too difficult from the first and second cut.

  Anthony

[Michael Whitaker]

Is there a heavy correlation between handicap and sentiment among those who feel strongest--both in defense and in opposition (or nonplussedness) about DR?  Is it one of those courses that frustrates higher handicappers a little more than others?  Such a case would not be out of line with many, many other Nicklaus courses.  I know that that's the case at my home course, Pawleys Plantation.  Based on a few hundred rounds, the lower your handicap, the more you're going to enjoy it.

I don't mean to seem like I'm looking down my nose at higher-handicap players in the least; I just feel very strongly that there are a number of courses about which golfers of quite different handicaps will feel quite differently.

Tim,

I am a higher handicap golfer and I enjoy DR... and Palweys Plantation!  I think is has more to do with some golfers just don't enjoy an adventure. They want to play "normal" courses and consider courses as bold as DR too extreme and unconventional. Golfers who love DR and those who look forward to playing holes such as #13 & #17 at Pawleys Plantation are not necessarily of the mainstream.

[Greg Clark]

I'm glad that DR is doing well.  I've been on the site long enough to remember pics of the course during construction and the numerous threads over the years.  The course always looked interesting to me.  I hope one day to get to see it in person.  There is no question that there was a lot of anticipation on this site for DR to open.  I also believe that there was a built in anti Nicklaus bias on GCA that pounced on any flaws of the course, and there were members of this site that kind of delighted in any new thread about changes to the course, as if it validated their lack of respect for Mr. Nicklaus' work in general and at DR specifically.  I believe the view of Jack has softened a bit over time on this site.

As this thread was started to gain insight into the improved fortune of Dismal River, I'll ask a question that I don't think has been asked yet:  Has there been any change in the pricing structure at DR during ownership changes that has had a positive impact in the growth of the club?  I truly don't have any idea if this has been the case or not, and I'm not looking to gain specific information on the cost to join DR.  If this question is taboo, then please forgive, as my intent isn't to bring out private club information.   This thread certainly has covered how new management has impacted the experience at DR, as well as how maintenance changes and the softening of the course have made the course more enjoyable to play.  I'm wondering if new management also made changes to the pricing structure at DR and if this has played a significant part as well.

[Mike Hendren]

Finally, I would highly recommend to anyone who enjoys DR that they visit Ballyhack. Ballyhack is the one course I have played that delivers a very similar golfing experience to DR. I tried to get a thread going a while back comparing the two courses... but, I must be the only person on here who has played both of them because I couldn't get anyone to participate. Maybe this summer we can try again.

Michael, glad to read that comment.  I was pleasantly surprised to have an absolute blast at Ballyhack and would return there over a second round at Kinloch.  That's not to imply in any way that Ballyhack is the superior golf course.  Even for us traditionalists however, thrilling architecture draped over bold terrain makes for a large time, particularly in small doses.  Jim Engh tries to accomplish this with engineering, but I found Lester's work at Ballyhack to be much more enjoyable.  I look forward to being able to make the comparison you mention in a few months.

Bogey

[Kalen Braley]

Based on these last few comments, I suspect I will enjoy DR even more than anticipated.

I'm a huge fan of "bold" architecture with wild/quirky holes, unconventional shot requirements, and all kinds of way to play them.  And given I've had a fair amount of exposure to mountain golf living in Utah for a few years, I don't mind that aspect either....

[Mac Plumart]

if you like thrilling holes on bold terrain then you will love DR

Mike W...I think this quote from you is spot on.  As is the entirety of the post that quote came from. (#250)

[Chris Johnston]

Has there been any change in the pricing structure at DR during ownership changes that has had a positive impact in the growth of the club? 

Greg, Yes, and no.  Our mission is to have a club available to the most broad group possible and the cost to join is quite reasonable.  We don't want to be "price exclusive".  Sand Hills was very affordable early on and we believe that is one of several important reasons for it's success  We also have an "Overseas" membership as well as a "Junior" program.  We always look at the "value" equation and cost to join certainly is part of that.  People who join these clubs are looking for someything that fits them.  That's where "fun" comes in - we aren't pretentious...it isn't who "we" are.

As shared before, one of the problems at many "destination" national clubs was the cost to create the destination.  We are basically a private resort, in that we have accommodations and complete F&B operations. 

[Jud_T]

This makes me definitely want to see Dismal and Ballyhack.  Would you say there's a pretty big learning curve at Dismal as at place like Kingsley where the members really love the place even more after a couple of years up the learning curve?  Are there spots where you simply cannot miss on certain holes or it brings an X squarely into the equation?

[Dan Herrmann]

Jud,
I don't think so - From what I remember, there are safe routes on every hole.  Laura was with me at the 5th Major last year, and really enjoyed the golf course.  She's about a 20 handicap.    And I don't recall losing many golf balls at all, and f I did, it was all on me.

What I really like about what CJ is doing is that the Doak course won't be a clone of the current course.  I can see about a 50/50 distribution of play due to the neat variety.  Don't get me wrong, though - that Doak course is being routed over some world class terrain that'll make you gawk with a smile when you see it for the first time in person.  

[Sven Nilsen]

In all seriousness, I joined Dismal River sight unseen, based on information I gleaned from this site, principally the fact that Tom Doak is building a second course that looks like it might be sensational.  All of these threads, however, are making me consider remaining in the "sight unseen" category.  It's a real turn-off.

I agree 100%. I hope no one starts the hole by hole strategic review those who just want to learn have requested. This will be my last post about Dismal until Easter.  Being the most talked about course on the planet may not be all it seems.

John:

I think you and I read Terry's comment very differently (or perhaps you infused some meaning into it that I did not see).

Are we to assume you're not a fan of the Kingsley, Pacific Dunes, Old Mac, etc. hole-by-hole threads that have taken place in the past?  For the life of me I cannot think why you would be against such a thread on Dismal. 

Those that can't see it do indeed want to learn about it.  There's a plethora of courses I can only dream of playing, but thanks to the photo tours here and the accompanying discussion I get a pretty good idea of what they're all about.

Those that have seen it may want to relive some memories, or add some thoughts to the discussion.

Those that will see it may want to get a preview.  I'm in the camp that soaks in as much knowledge about a course as possible before playing it.  I think it helps my game, helps my appreciation and occasionally provides for a surprise when features are completely different in real life from how they seemed on a computer screen. 

Those that want no prior knowledge are always free to ignore the thread.  As far as I know, there's no force feeding around here.

I find it very confusing that you, one of Dismal's biggest promoters, have decided to road block the discussion on this course.  You're still looking for motives.  Take the tin foil hat off, chime in and see what happens.  You might be surprised.

Sven

PS - Still looking for your email response to my questions.

[Anthony Gray]

  What is bold about DR?

  Anthony

[Kevin Lynch]

Finally, I would highly recommend to anyone who enjoys DR that they visit Ballyhack. Ballyhack is the one course I have played that delivers a very similar golfing experience to DR. I tried to get a thread going a while back comparing the two courses... but, I must be the only person on here who has played both of them because I couldn't get anyone to participate. Maybe this summer we can try again.

Michael, glad to read that comment.  I was pleasantly surprised to have an absolute blast at Ballyhack and would return there over a second round at Kinloch.  That's not to imply in any way that Ballyhack is the superior golf course.  Even for us traditionalists however, thrilling architecture draped over bold terrain makes for a large time, particularly in small doses.  Jim Engh tries to accomplish this with engineering, but I found Lester's work at Ballyhack to be much more enjoyable.  I look forward to being able to make the comparison you mention in a few months.

Bogey

Michael(s),

I think you nailed it on the reasons these severe courses do not fare well in national rankings.  I have not played Dismal, but I am a big fan of Ballyhack, and many of the things you said do apply.

Last year, I was stunned to see that Ballyhack had not only missed out on the Top 100, it wasn’t even in the “Next 100” listing.  But I can completely understand how that may happen in a purely quantitative model, as it would likely draw some strong negative ratings.  I had several discussions with Brad Klein about the course, as well as several PMs from raters who raved about it. Definitely a polarizing course.

As you said, if it’s your “style” of course, you will love Ballyhack and probably couldn’t care less what the experts say about it.  I imagine it’s the same way for the Dismal fans.

In that regard, I think Chris J. has the right approach in not worrying about the “ratings” and simply focusing more on the fun.  Ballyhack is somewhat similar, in that the atmosphere definitely makes me feel more at ease, especially when compared to the pristine & gated feel at a course like Kinloch.

[Michael Whitaker]

Based on these last few comments, I suspect I will enjoy DR even more than anticipated.

I'm a huge fan of "bold" architecture with wild/quirky holes, unconventional shot requirements, and all kinds of way to play them.  And given I've had a fair amount of exposure to mountain golf living in Utah for a few years, I don't mind that aspect either....

Kalen,

I have only played a few courses in the Mesquite/St George area. I would guess the best in Mesquite would be Wolf Creek? Dismal River is 1000 times better than Wolf Creek... and I do mean 1000 times better!

[David Kelly]

I have only played a few courses in the Mesquite/St George area. I would guess the best in the Mesquite area would be Wolf Creek? Dismal River is 1000 times better than Wolf Creek... and I do mean 1000 times better!

Faint praise.

[Michael Whitaker]

Faint praise.

Really? The Wall Street Journal would disagree with you:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304760604576425710057235474.html#articleTabs=article

[David Kelly]

Faint praise.

Really? The Wall Street Journal would disagree with you:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304760604576425710057235474.html#articleTabs=article

So what? I'm sure many people would disagree with me about Wolf Creek.

[PThomas]

Faint praise.

Really? The Wall Street Journal would disagree with you:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304760604576425710057235474.html#articleTabs=article

hurting the credibility of that WSJ article is this statement in it about Pebble: "Considered the most difficult course in the world..."

[Michael Whitaker]

Faint praise.

Really? The Wall Street Journal would disagree with you:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304760604576425710057235474.html#articleTabs=article

So what? I'm sure many people would disagree with me about Wolf Creek.

No... I agree with you. Wolf Creek is only 1/1000 as good as Dismal River. It's just that many people like Wolf Creek, so I don't consider my comparison faint praise.

[Adam Clayman]

In all seriousness, I think Adam Clayman's input on this thread has been fantastic and provides many of the answers Jim was seeking.

Thanks Adam!

  ?

 

Tanks Mac.

[Kalen Braley]

Micheal,

Thanks for the input.

Sky Mountain is the only course I've played in the Southern Utah, Eastern Nevada area...but I have played plenty of mountain courses up near the SLC area, and that's my primary reference point.  I've also played a few here in the PNW like Black Rock in northern Idaho.

I know these roller coaster type courses aren't for everyone, but I've always liked them as they provide neat looking holes that play differently from your typical flatish setups.

[Mac Plumart]

Sven and I have been communicating via PM and this thread has been moving so fast and I wasn't manning my compute the entire times.  Regardless, I thought I could answer some of his questions and did so privately.  He has suggested I share those PM's with the group as he found them interesting.  So, with Sven's permission here are those private messages...word for word.



Sven...

The Dismal thread is moving so fast, I can't keep up with it.  But you did ask a good question that I'd like to respond to...but it is so lost in other posts that I thought a PM would be appropriate.

Dismal's architecture is heroic and strategic to put a moniker on it.

Many times you have the option to make a bold and crazy shot/carry...or choose another route in.  One of the things that is so cool about it (in my opinion) is that the heroic carries do not involve water, as there is almost no water on the course...in fact, one little active windmill well (you've seen the photo of it, I'm sure).  Rather the heroic carries  involve massive bunkers. 

For examples of this, look up pictures of:

Hole 2...par 4 angled forced carry off the tee...you can challenge the hole for birdie and make a 260+ yard carry...or hit as little as 160 off the tee to make the carry...but you will have a LONG approach in.

Hole 8...drivable par 4 with a long skinny green that is partially blind with a MASSIVE bunker guarding the left of the green and splitting the fairway.  I always lay up way out left in the fairway and pitch in...while many others go for the heroic risk/reward shot.

Hole 14...par 4 with a downhill tee shot than an uphill approach to a perched green guarded by a crazy deep bunker (25-30 feet deep).  Risk it all and go for the green...or play way out left and try to get up and down for par.  Guess which way I play the hole!!! 

Hole 16...par 4 carry the cross bunker off the tee and have a little wedge into the green...or lay up left of the bunker and have a long iron in.

Hole 17...same as 16, but the lay up is right.

Of course all the par 5's have the risk/reward element to them regarding going for the green in 2.

The interesting thing about Dismal to me is the mind game's the course can play with golfers.  If you are on Max's, I talk about this on the Dismal thread I started awhile back and you can just check it out.  If you are not, I'll touch on it quickly.  It is like Mike Strantz says.  Intimidate the golfer before he even swings his club and you've won.  That is what Dismal does over and over.  The carries, bunkers, slopes, and contours look intimidating as hell.  But long holes that look fierce as hell, have punchbowl greens (or something to that effect) so you just need to get close and funnel your ball in.  Meanwhile the easier looking holes, have crazy greens and/or subtle traps that can get you if you think you are on a breather hole.

I hope this helps.

[Mac Plumart]

In response to this Sven said he thought #14 sounded more penal becausing going for a par 4 in two was the norm.  To which I said,



I here you on 14 and I don't disagree if you want to get on in 2.

Also, I mentioned how good Adam's insight are/were on the thread but I also think Mike Whitaker is hitting some great points.  And that focus is the course not being what people expected and it shocking them AND also the course striking a chord with specific tastes of the golfer.  I like Dismal, I like 10 and 11 at Shinnecock.  Kingsley intrigues the heck out of me.  I loved the dunes run at Askernish.  Old Mac 15 is one of my favorite holes.  I love the thrill ride.  But if someone prefers the classic styling of, say, San Francisco Golf Club or Chechessee Creek...I can totally see where the courses (or hole runs) I described above wouldn't be their taste.  Nuzzo three classes of golfers again.  IMO.




I hope these PM's can help the thread...and I do want to re-iterate that Adam's post are VERY good as are Mike W's.  And Chris' insight is simply invaluable.  Think if Mike Keiser, Mike Pascucci, or another owner of a famous golf course posted on here.  WOW!!!  That would be amazing, just like Chris' inputs are.

[Chris Johnston]

Mac

I agree with all that you have said.

#14 is a hole where ability to shape a shot is helpful.  Into a moderate to strong wind, it is a Par 4-1/2 to 4-3/4.  No wind or down wind, you have between a 6 iron and 8 iron but it is visually intimidating as heck.  I also think the green may need softening in the future as it is wind/sand swept and the internal contous have been magnified over a short time.  #!4 is a hole you simply don't get at home.

Par is a very good score on #14, but I seem to birdie it more than expected.